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You absolutely cannot equate capping Westchester's taxes to what happened to CA. First, prop. 13 capped tax increases at 1% a year, which was just stupid because it is far below inflation. So you have a ton of older people living there paying nothing in taxes - my next door neighbors for instance lived in a house valued at over $1M and yet paid $1100 a YEAR in taxes. Had I bought it, I would have paid around $13K. And you have voting by proposition, and as you can see, most of Congress isn't smart enough to pass laws, yet they let people with absolutely no understanding of the full impact of issues vote on them. Then there is the insanely Democratic representatives, term limits, 2/3 majority for passing a budget, illegals....it goes on and on.
However, make no mistake, there is so much waste, corruption and useless levels of governement in this county. Look at Fairfax VA, or any of the top districts in the country...they educate kids just as well or better for half of what we do. We have town police, village police, fire chiefs making more than the one in NYC, school districts for under 1000 kids, teachers' median salary in poor districts being almost $100K.
Aside from obvious reasons in CA, most people still stay in their homes long after retirement in the rest of the country...they simply can't AFFORD to here.
Just a quick correction... Prop 13 caps annual increases at 2%
Also, new construction/improvements trigger reassessment to fair market value.
I bought my CA home at the peak... it was the median price at 598K and my tax bill is $9,100... so, even with CA falling prices... I'm still paying over 1.5%... not complaining, just trying to avoid confusion.
In any event... don't really have anything to complain about since I knew what to expect going in tax wise due to Prop 13 predictability.
I work with someone from Westchester and Property Tax was a big deal when they lived there.
Ooops, I stand corrected. Still, 2% is crazy when you look at the average appreciation in CA. But I do think that there is some technicality to avoid the full reassessment because on EVERY teardown without fail in my old neighborhood, they would leave one wall standing. It was an interesting game to watch.
1.5% is high...near the beach areas it was barely 1.1%. Must be from all of those bond measures people keep passing funded by all of the special interests.
And still, I find it crazy that every single LAUSD measure fails miserably. That system is so dysfunctional and poorly run, that people refuse to throw good money after bad and rightly so!
You absolutely cannot equate capping Westchester's taxes to what happened to CA. First, prop. 13 capped tax increases at 1% a year, which was just stupid because it is far below inflation. So you have a ton of older people living there paying nothing in taxes - my next door neighbors for instance lived in a house valued at over $1M and yet paid $1100 a YEAR in taxes. Had I bought it, I would have paid around $13K. And you have voting by proposition, and as you can see, most of Congress isn't smart enough to pass laws, yet they let people with absolutely no understanding of the full impact of issues vote on them. Then there is the insanely Democratic representatives, term limits, 2/3 majority for passing a budget, illegals....it goes on and on.
However, make no mistake, there is so much waste, corruption and useless levels of governement in this county. Look at Fairfax VA, or any of the top districts in the country...they educate kids just as well or better for half of what we do. We have town police, village police, fire chiefs making more than the one in NYC, school districts for under 1000 kids, teachers' median salary in poor districts being almost $100K.
Aside from obvious reasons in CA, most people still stay in their homes long after retirement in the rest of the country...they simply can't AFFORD to here.
jj - you just moved here, correct? if you have such disdain for the way Westchester taxes, why did decide on it if you don't mind me asking? There are other areas nearby with taxes that, while high, aren't quite as bad as Westchester.
You complain about the democratic reps in California, but the tax cap and the 2/3 majority for passing budgets are both legacies of republican legislation...both were line items in the 1978 prop 13 bill. Just saying.
As for the budgets here in Westchester - like I said...everyone moves here for the great quality of life, then complains about the taxes required to sustain it. Yes, the school districts and municipalities are small. Keeping the Los Angeles comparison going (and what low taxes and "efficiencies" of combining school districts will get you), LAUSD employs @3,500 in administration, most of whom make six figures. That's not including teaching staff. That's just admin. If we combined districts there would be financial consequences as well. In my district, the school board is not even paid. I think the admin count in our district is five.
If municipalities combine towns/villages also lose their sense of 'place'. Again, for comparison on the opposite side of the spectrum (too big), look at the mess LA is in. Low taxes and combined municipalities come with consequences. One small example: blight, and what the lack of a sense of 'place' of combined municipalities will get you: in 2006 the billboard companies put a settlement to the city that claimed they were going to 'modernize' their current billboards. The city council is so big and unfocused that nobody even noticed that in fine print of this 'settlement' the billboard companies got to change existing billboards to digital. As a result, little residential neighborhoods now have big, las vegas style billboards glaring at them (I know, this happened in my old neighborhood). I'll take a small town approach where each municipality is given thought and individual care any day (obviously...i moved here)
And don't get me started on the problems with all levels of public service in LA, from the police force to trash collection, it's hurting. Because it's just not being paid for appropriately. When we moved here from LA our taxes more than doubled. But we no longer have to worry about tuition for private schools, we have the peace of mind knowing that if we call the police we won't need to wait forever for help. Heck, on trash pick up day we even don't have to go out to the street to pick up all of the trash that was left behind because the sanitation dept. guys are so understaffed and underpaid that they rush down the street, never even getting out of the automated truck.
We get what we pay for.
Not saying I love taxes. Just saying we get what we pay for.
jj - you just moved here, correct? if you have such disdain for the way Westchester taxes, why did decide on it if you don't mind me asking? There are other areas nearby with taxes that, while high, aren't quite as bad as Westchester.
You complain about the democratic reps in California, but the tax cap and the 2/3 majority for passing budgets are both legacies of republican legislation...both were line items in the 1978 prop 13 bill. Just saying.
I think most would be happy getting value for their tax dollars and some of the problem is when the value isn't perceived.
When relocating... there is no substitute for doing your research ahead of time.
One point about Prop 13... it was a Grass Roots Movement that swept the Initiative into law... Democrats and Republicans in the Legislature often vehemently opposed it... Democratic Governor Brown campaigned against it in 1978 and was just elected Governor again... interesting times...
I think most would be happy getting value for their tax dollars and some of the problem is when the value isn't perceived.
When relocating... there is no substitute for doing your research ahead of time.
One point about Prop 13... it was a Grass Roots Movement that swept the Initiative into law... Democrats and Republicans in the Legislature often vehemently opposed it... Democratic Governor Brown campaigned against it in 1978 and was just elected Governor again... interesting times...
Good point. Personally, perceived value for me is high because we just moved here from a community where taxes are much lower, but the community paid a price for those low taxes.
It is indeed interesting that Brown - a man who very much opposed prop 13 - was just re-elected. Although I don't know if it's because lessons have been learned by California...as JJ notes above, time and time again measures to better fund education are struck down...people still don't want to spend the money (although, again, that confounded 2/3 majority is really, really a hinderance).
My bigger point was this...Westchester is a terrific place for families. Yes, the taxes are high...but there are also excellent public services to show for it. Again, coming from LA the 'perceived value' for me by way of comparison is pretty on target. The only 'waste' that seems to be pointed when people complain about Westchester budget are public service workers (teachers, fire, police) salary and lack of potential cost efficiencies due to our smaller municipalities. I already touched on the pitfalls of combined municipalities (loss of a sense of 'place', lack of care taken to keep the spirit of each individual community alive). Re: wages, giving a comparison of what a different community can do with lower taxes is not apples to apples. Median home sales in Fairfax VA are around $450k. Median home sales in Westchester are around $800k. If we don't pay our public service workers well, where do we expect them to live? Do we expect the folks whom we entrust with teaching our kids to make Fairfax VA wages but have to deal w/a Westchester NY cost of living?
Yes, agreed, research is of tantamount importance when researching a move. Am so thankful there is a site like this one that makes this kind of data so accessible.
"jj - you just moved here, correct? if you have such disdain for the way Westchester taxes, why did decide on it if you don't mind me asking?"
How many choices do you have when you are working in NYC? I mean ultimately, that is the only reason any of these areas cost what they do. Jersey doesn't go into GCC and neither does LIRR (both of which are known to have horrible delays anyway). And as I've stated in some recent posts, we have turned our search to CT. It's a personal choice. Our perceived value (as someone else mentioned) is higher there, at least in Greenwich. Not to say that I don't like Westchester. I do. But having grown up in a family of fairly senior government employees, I do have a pretty good grasp of the insane amount of waste inherent in every layer of government. More layers = more waste.
I do get lost on the argument that 'it costs x to live here so we have to pay them appropriately." Certainly we don't want people commuting from NJ, but to say that a teacher or city clerk in Scarsdale is entitled to make enough to live in Scarsdale is silly. I would venture to say that 90% of the people on this board don't make enough to do that. There are areas nearby that aren't nearly as expensive if you don't need to commute daily to NYC.
And I've ever defended CA as a model of anything, and certainly not school quality or fiscal responsibility. I could go on but this post has already gotten completely off topic. My point in mentioning taxes was only to make sure that the OP took into account the long-term prospects for staying in one place vs. another.
...I could go on but this post has already gotten completely off topic. My point in mentioning taxes was only to make sure that the OP took into account the long-term prospects for staying in one place vs. another.
I wouldn't say discussing taxes at length is too off topic at all, and the subject brings up a good point. The OP is pondering LI vs. Westchester. It does seem that many people do remain in LI after the nest empties, and, as you point out, many people tend to leave Westchester because of the taxes. I agree with this.
So maybe the broader point may be, if there are communities that have found the right mix in delivering a high quality of life for families (e.g. Westchester), and others who have the right mix for delivering same for seniors (e.g. Palm Beach), maybe that is as it should be. Maybe it is unrealistic to look at selecting a living arrangement 'for life' as it used to be. Or, if you do find this place, it will not be a 'stand out' location for one life priority vs. another (e.g. Los Angeles; that has seemingly lost its soul because it doesn't know what it wants to be). Maybe the attempt to make a community all things for all people leads to mediocrity. Something to chew on.
As many people no longer feel they have to work at, say, IBM for 35 years, get a gold watch, then retire, maybe the place we call home no longer needs fit a certain mold either. The way I look at it is: why fight it? Personally, we will most likely move to an area with lower taxes once the kids are in college, but honestly, it will probably be a welcome change. The meaningful friendships we make here in Westchester will endure, like the friendships we have from the west coast have.
So, as you said, one consideration to answering the OPs original question is: what are your long-term living goals? Because once the kids are gone Westchester taxes may indeed seem ludicrous. But as long as one goes into it with their eyes open, and as long as while you are here you feel you are getting your money's worth, it may doesn't need to be a bad thing.
I appreciate everyone's thoughts and glad to see that others had to make difficult decisions and have turned out ok. Just a thought about the tax issue. I often have interesting discussions with my neighbors in Queens about the property tax issue in both LI and Westchester. My stance is that I pay approximately $ 4,500 a year here which is obviously low. However, in a few years my daughter will have to go to JH in my area which is awful and then two years later the same with my son. To send 2 kids to private school in my area would easily cost my family at least 12k to 15k a year on top of my property taxes of 4k. So, if you are intent on providing your children with a quality education, and you live in the City I don't know how relative the high taxes are. Not to mention I live on a 40 X 100 lot in a 1200 sq ft 3 bedroom.
"To send 2 kids to private school in my area would easily cost my family at least 12k to 15k a year on top of my property taxes of 4k."
And there you have the reason why almost every school budget in this county passes, without question. What is the alternative?
But in a sense, this is also driving the tax increases. If almost everyone living here has kids in the schools because the taxes are so high, the taxes get higher, pushing childless people out, raising taxes more, pushing more childless people out and so on. Eventually every family will be paying the equivalent to private school in taxes, because the only people living here will have kids and be drawing heavily from the system. It's kind of like health insurance...if everyone paying into the pot is sick, it's not going to work. You need healthy people (i.e. people without kids, in this analogy) in the 'pool' to keep it affordable for everyone. OK, now I've REALLY gone off topic, but you get my idea!
BTW, 60 Minutes had an EXCELLENT episode tonight where they interviewed Christie and several other governors about the fiscal woes facing states right now.
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