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Old 04-04-2011, 09:46 PM
 
Location: New York
86 posts, read 240,259 times
Reputation: 51

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest_Hills_Daddy View Post
Don't be afraid to admit the truth. If you really said no such thing, then why would you want to keep a whole portfolio of expensive programs that are vaguely (and subjectively) related to academics?

Then you contradict yourself in the second part of your post by saying kids shouldn't lose programs. So you are saying we should keep these programs after all.It's right there in your post, OK?

But there's a basic flaw in your argument. I'm talking about students in so called highly regarded Westchester school districts. These are not kids who are in socioeconomic struggle so the second part of your post does not apply.
All right. I'm going to quote what you said that I said, which I never said, then I'm going to be done with you because I don't think you listen much.

You said:
" Think about it. You're saying that in order for a kid to learn arithmetic to algebra, sentence to research paper and fairy tale to novel, you would build a whole nexus of supporting programs from fancy sports teams, student orchestras and bands and "innovative" teaching methods that would turn teachers into counselors/psychologists/entertainers "

I said no such thing. I said nothing of "fancy sports teams", of a "whole nexus of supporting programs", et al. Those are your words, not mine. There are plenty of struggling families in my district, by the way. It is arrogant to assume you know the situation of all Westchester families.
Nonetheless, I think you are incapable of understanding my point. So I'm done.
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Old 04-04-2011, 10:10 PM
 
15 posts, read 29,764 times
Reputation: 15
Big heart libs, pls feel free to help those ppl in what way you want with
your own money and just leave the rest of us alone. We are not smart
enough to mess with other ppl's lives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tammy42 View Post
This to me is an excellent example of limited thinking, which gets our communities in trouble. Indeed, well-adjusted kids of a typical family with both parents living at home and 2.5 children may not "need" extracurricular sports. But alas, the world is not an ideal place for everyone. One size doesn't fit all. How much exposure have you had in your life to families where there is only one parent, who lacks parenting skills, and the kids are at risk? 'Give them d's and f's; don't be afraid to give them detention'...that is your solution? How is threatening them with detention going to keep these kids occupied after school? I personally came from a poor background and let me tell you, I've seen stuff that no kid should see. Many children that come from less than optimal situations don't have parents encouraging them to study. As a kid of a waitress who worked three jobs, I not once in my teen years was asked about my grades, much less my homework. And I saw a lot of kids benefit from extracurricular programs. Bottom line: assume nothing and err on the side of ensuring the children - all children - come first.

Conclusive studies have shown that extracurricular activities help not only keep at-risk kids engaged, but they give them positive behavioral reinforcement and teach social skills they may otherwise be lacking in elsewhere. In addition to being a motivation to keep up their grades.
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Old 04-05-2011, 06:24 AM
 
Location: New York
86 posts, read 240,259 times
Reputation: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by zytu2001 View Post
Big heart libs, pls feel free to help those ppl in what way you want with
your own money...
Folks who allude to "big heart libs" in your manner make the mistake in thinking that we all relish the thought of giving up our hard earned money. We don't; but we are also able to look at the big picture, think outside ourselves, and know, based on concrete research, that educating kids - and ensuring those at risk are taken care of - is better for society. And this thinking isn't limited to 'big heart libs'. I know plenty of conservatives in my district who also see the value of a diverse education. Also, the value of extracurricular enrichment isn't limited to 'at-risk' kids. All kids benefit. And reasons aren't limited to the 'bleeding heart lib' variety; some folks vote for them because these activities are good for college admissions. Whatever the reason, I think we do ourselves a disservice as a society by trying to lump people into taking sides, labeling like this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zytu2001 View Post
...and just leave the rest of us alone. We are not smart
enough to mess with other ppl's lives.
See above posts. We all vote for our priorities. Districts who have sports and other extracurricular activities have voted on them; they are in the budget because folks locally voted in favor of them. So in essence we are indeed 'helping people in need with our own money'. The programs of which we speak are paid for via property taxes, which is the subject of this thread. So it would appear it is you who should stop trying to mess with other people's lives. As noted, you are free to move to a state which values education less, isn't "smart enough" to look at the consequences of inaction - where taxes are subsequently lower, but you have to take the whole package, because again, crime tends to be higher, poverty tends to perpetuate itself - and that is no coincidence. If you live in Westchester and are complaining about the priorities of its community members it appears to be your problem, not mine.

Last edited by tammy42; 04-05-2011 at 07:45 AM..
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Old 04-05-2011, 07:39 AM
 
Location: Bellevue, WA
1,487 posts, read 3,737,738 times
Reputation: 563
I actually think in certain instances, a harder line needs to be drawn with the disadvantaged kids. What is the name of the charter school in Harlem that consistently turns out impressive results among the most disadvantaged kids? I've seen similar schools in the south side of Chicago and honestly, I think they should be the model for schools in poor neighborhoods. Some of these kids need a big kick in the pants far more than football and basketball, IMO.

And as for Fairfax being cheaper than Westchester, yes that is true, but 1% of housing value is 1% and holds for the COL difference. Their houses are cheaper there, yet they can still charge 1%, while here, we are closer to 3% and our houses are easily 50% more (being very generous.)

There is also a lot of debate as to how much class size truly impacts the quality of the education, as class sizes in most of Asia and other developed countries are far bigger than ours. The quality of the teacher is far more significant, and IMO it is a joke in the US that a teacher without any advanced training in a particular subject can teach it in the 1st place.
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Old 04-05-2011, 07:47 AM
 
6,993 posts, read 9,502,905 times
Reputation: 2952
tammy,

First you say this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tammy42 View Post
I said no such thing.
And then you say this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tammy42 View Post
but kids in need shouldn't lose programs
Are you disowning your own posts?


Uhmmm...We are talking about high-tax, expensive neighorhoods in Westchester, okay? If you weren't talking about programs that these neighborhoods engage in, then why did you join the discussion?

Again, I caught you contradicting yourself on the same post.

Your other points were totally irrelevant.
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Old 04-05-2011, 08:15 AM
 
258 posts, read 773,229 times
Reputation: 81
[quote=jjinla;18592545]I actually think in certain instances, a harder line needs to be drawn with the disadvantaged kids. What is the name of the charter school in Harlem that consistently turns out impressive results among the most disadvantaged kids? I've seen similar schools in the south side of Chicago and honestly, I think they should be the model for schools in poor neighborhoods. Some of these kids need a big kick in the pants far more than football and basketball, IMO.

The one that I think you are referring to is the promise academy. Charter schools pick kids and should have better results. It's the same way I feel about using Stuyvesant to cite an example of how you do not need a high budget to have a good science program. If a school chooses kids, it can't be compared to a public school that takes every child in their catchment area. The fact that the parents fill out applications and take tours, you are already eliminating the neediest population in Harlem. I work in a public school in the same area as one of the promise academies and we have very high test scores and we take everyone in our neighborhood. NYC public schools are very different because of school choice. The schools that are cited from NYC all pick and choose kids. If you have a motivated child who has little special needs and can test well, you will do great in NYC. When you have a child that needs remedial help, has special needs and doesn't test well, it is a whole different story and there is much less opportunity.

As for Fairfax, I know nothing about this county. I can't imagine that the property values are 1% less than Westchester. The median house value may be similar but I bet it is cheaper to live there (houses much larger for the same amt of money). I am also sure that the cost of living for the teachers is much less in Virginia. I am sure that any construction costs significantly less. I am sure their custodial and lunchroom staff make much less. I am sure that everything there costs significantly less because Virginia is cheaper than NY.
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Old 04-05-2011, 08:27 AM
 
6,993 posts, read 9,502,905 times
Reputation: 2952
/\/\

Charter schools for the most part select by lottery. It's a random process so they cannot cherry-pick their students.

And they are by no means cheap. Some estimates I've seen in the press cite them as spending more than $16,000 per student per year.
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Old 04-05-2011, 08:47 AM
 
258 posts, read 773,229 times
Reputation: 81
Many of these lotteries are not really random. I have had several kids "win the lottery" who happened to be extremely bright. Also, Many of the parents I work with in harlem would never get information on the lottery, fill out the necessary forms, etc. The parents who are applying to these lotteries tend to be parents that are literate to fill out the forms, care enough to go on tours, etc. Unfortunately, the neediest kids in harlem do not have parents that can or will do these things.
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Old 04-05-2011, 09:07 AM
 
Location: New York
86 posts, read 240,259 times
Reputation: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by lan3 View Post
Many of these lotteries are not really random. I have had several kids "win the lottery" who happened to be extremely bright. Also, Many of the parents I work with in harlem would never get information on the lottery, fill out the necessary forms, etc. The parents who are applying to these lotteries tend to be parents that are literate to fill out the forms, care enough to go on tours, etc. Unfortunately, the neediest kids in harlem do not have parents that can or will do these things.
I helped found a charter school in Los Angeles before moving here. They take their lotteries pretty seriously. I think your point that people actively seek out Charters and put their names in those hats is more what is at work here. The parents who do so are actively engaged on some level. And, as we all know, engaged and nurturing parents make a major difference academic performance of their children. Public schools do not have the benefit of an almost guaranteed engaged parental body, so comparing the performance of a charter to that of a public school in the same area is indeed apples and oranges.
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Old 04-05-2011, 09:22 AM
 
258 posts, read 773,229 times
Reputation: 81
I know we have a MS in the Bronx that has a lottery that is clearly fixed and everybody knows it. I visited an elite, expensive NYC private school that has a lottery for local residents. An extremely bright kid won and when I questioned it, a worker said they did the lottery amongst kids that would " fit in" at the school. Many lotteries are on the up & up but many are not. The ones that are legitimate do have the benefit if the type of parents that are savvy enough to apply. On that, we agree.
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