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Can you please elaborate on the nature of these obscene zoning laws and their defiance of the free market? I may be a resident of such a town (Pound Ridge). In what way are the zoning laws obscene?
Pound Ridge essentially bans multifamily housing and small lot housing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kletter1mann
I'm assuming you have something more substantive than just the "exclusionary" 2 acre zoning, since that's really a practical minimum these days for a conforming septic system in towns without a sewage district.
That's nonsense. There is no rule that you need 2 acres for septic. It's an excuse used to justify discrimination.
The mortgage deduction is a MUCH bigger federal subsidy than public housing. The feds spend like 100x more on the mortgage interest deduction than on public housing.
When it comes to housing, the "welfare queens" are homeowners in expensive homes. They get their mortgage interest and property taxes deducted. Renters receive no such benefit.
Absurd. The FEDS don't "SPEND" anything on the mortgage deduction. In your warped worldview someone paying LESS of THEIR OWN money in taxes is the fed spending money? The proper phrasing is the FEDS TAKE less of your money than they otherwise would because of the mortgage deduction. On the flip side of that is the actual money SPENT to build your utopian housing...THAT is money spent. I'm sorry but you don't just get to make up your own definition for things and try to pass them off as truths.
True, there is nothing remotely "free market" about the housing industry. It's completely hypocritical for anyone to be against affordable housing on this basis, since there is no such thing.
And Northern Westchester, speaking generally, is one of the least "free market" parts of the region. The entire housing market is basically an artificial construct of zoning based on outdated postwar ideas of suburbia/quasi-country life.
Zoning that favors country roads, mature trees, good spacing between houses, large gardens, grass verges are "outdated" ideas?
Boy do you have an agenda.
God forbid anyone wants to live in a low-stress aesthetically pleasing and generally bucolic neighborhood. Now the thought police require you to desire hi-density, and no doubt concreted, everyone-living-in-your-pocket. That's the "non-outdated" view.
What a pile of country badger poop.
Carry on living in your massive heat-island of a city.
Is there any particular reason why the government sees the need to place subsidized housing in, say, Pound Ridge or Chappaqua?
Are there many lower- and middle-income families who can't find a place to live? By Westchester standards, I am in the lower-middle class, and my family and I have never had a problem finding housing. We didn't look at certain areas --say, Bronxville -- because the rents were simply too high for our income. That's the way the cookie crumbles.
Why force this?
Is there any particular reason why the government sees the need to place subsidized housing in, say, Pound Ridge or Chappaqua?
Are there many lower- and middle-income families who can't find a place to live? By Westchester standards, I am in the lower-middle class, and my family and I have never had a problem finding housing. We didn't look at certain areas --say, Bronxville -- because the rents were simply too high for our income. That's the way the cookie crumbles.
Why force this?
Its only fair..
I hear they are creating a special affordable table at Jean Georges' Inn at Pound Ridge restaurant too for people who can't otherwise afford to eat there.
The first thing we should do is set aside some low-income housing in the all-white coop apartment buildings where the jackass publisher and editor of the New York Times reside. Big phony limousine liberal hypocrites who I absolutely despise.
Pound Ridge essentially bans multifamily housing and small lot housing.
That's nonsense. There is no rule that you need 2 acres for septic. It's an excuse used to justify discrimination.
You have revealed that you have no idea whatsoever about any of this and are driven to comment based purely on ideology uniformed by actual facts. You thereby disqualify yourself as a commentator on the topic. See if you can clear your mind of preconceptions for a moment consider the following.
The 2 acre zoning in Pound Ridge has been in place virtually forever, dating back to when the town was impoverished farmers and basketmakers. The land is rocky and swampy, conditions not conducive to farming, grazing or installing sewage systems.
Now back to the septic story. The NYC Dept of Environmental Protection sets the septic regulations in the NYC watershed areas, which includes much of northern Westchester. These are enforced by the county Board of Health, not the town. You are right, there's no statutory requirement that 2 acres is needed for a septic system. However, to install a system you need 100 foot setbacks from any wetlands, 10 ft from property lines and 100 ft from the nearest well. You also need space for an additional leech field. Given the rock, ledge, soil conditions, soil depth, etc 2 acres becomes a practical minimum to be able to install a new system, and often that's not enough (see case below). The area for a 5 bedroom leech field with the required expansion area is about 10,000 sq ft (0.23 acres). This is also the best case when soil percolation is excellent. If it isn't, such as when there's clay involved (very common), you're looking at a system 2x as big. If you doubt the challenge of locating such systems on 2 acres just take a look at the property lines on Zillow with a ruler and play a game of locate-the-septic. When the site, soil and circumstances are less ideal the system can will involve removing soil and replacing it with fill and hammering out ledge. My system was about as compact and ideal as possible and it still took 6 huge dumptrucks of fill.
A further illustration: A few years ago there was a teardown 2 lots away from me to build a huge, 6000 sq ft Nantucket shingled house on the site of a small ranch. The lot is 10 acres. They kept the original footprint, bedroom count (4) and the septic because, even on 10 acres, there wasn't room for a new system because of wetland proximity, streams, rocks, cliffs, etc. In Chappaqua, where lots are generally smaller, this has become an issue for a great many people - or they need to spend $70k+ for an engineered, pumped, mound system when they add a bedroom or their old septic fails.
Now, one could install a sewage district, at enormous expense, in these semi-rural areas. Then the 2 acre lots could be broken into .2 acre lots, like New Rochelle or Larchmont, or townhouse/apartments built. But then there would have to be the other infrastructure improvements in roads, transportation, schools, etc. And for what? You'd do well to understand that these semi-rural areas are that way for a reason, and always have been, and aren't all that different now than 50 years ago when nobody had any concept of alleged redlining practices, absurd political-correctness-gone-wild or any of that nonsense.
You have revealed that you have no idea whatsoever about any of this and are driven to comment based purely on ideology uniformed by actual facts. You thereby disqualify yourself as a commentator on the topic. See if you can clear your mind of preconceptions for a moment consider the following.
The 2 acre zoning in Pound Ridge has been in place virtually forever, dating back to when the town was impoverished farmers and basketmakers. The land is rocky and swampy, conditions not conducive to farming, grazing or installing sewage systems.
Now back to the septic story. The NYC Dept of Environmental Protection sets the septic regulations in the NYC watershed areas, which includes much of northern Westchester. These are enforced by the county Board of Health, not the town. You are right, there's no statutory requirement that 2 acres is needed for a septic system. However, to install a system you need 100 foot setbacks from any wetlands, 10 ft from property lines and 100 ft from the nearest well. You also need space for an additional leech field. Given the rock, ledge, soil conditions, soil depth, etc 2 acres becomes a practical minimum to be able to install a new system, and often that's not enough (see case below). The area for a 5 bedroom leech field with the required expansion area is about 10,000 sq ft (0.23 acres). This is also the best case when soil percolation is excellent. If it isn't, such as when there's clay involved (very common), you're looking at a system 2x as big. If you doubt the challenge of locating such systems on 2 acres just take a look at the property lines on Zillow with a ruler and play a game of locate-the-septic. When the site, soil and circumstances are less ideal the system can will involve removing soil and replacing it with fill and hammering out ledge. My system was about as compact and ideal as possible and it still took 6 huge dumptrucks of fill.
A further illustration: A few years ago there was a teardown 2 lots away from me to build a huge, 6000 sq ft Nantucket shingled house on the site of a small ranch. The lot is 10 acres. They kept the original footprint, bedroom count (4) and the septic because, even on 10 acres, there wasn't room for a new system because of wetland proximity, streams, rocks, cliffs, etc. In Chappaqua, where lots are generally smaller, this has become an issue for a great many people - or they need to spend $70k+ for an engineered, pumped, mound system when they add a bedroom or their old septic fails.
Now, one could install a sewage district, at enormous expense, in these semi-rural areas. Then the 2 acre lots could be broken into .2 acre lots, like New Rochelle or Larchmont, or townhouse/apartments built. But then there would have to be the other infrastructure improvements in roads, transportation, schools, etc. And for what? You'd do well to understand that these semi-rural areas are that way for a reason, and always have been, and aren't all that different now than 50 years ago when nobody had any concept of alleged redlining practices, absurd political-correctness-gone-wild or any of that nonsense.
Now your just letting silly old FACTS get in the way of a good "fairness"narrative. I've already run into this earlier in the thread. Haven't you learned that narrative trumps facts, especially "fairness" narrative? Now then, get ready for the retort since your facts stomped all over the narrative....when all else fails they will break out the labels "you bigot, racist, elitist".
But seriously, well done on the response. Glad someone w the knowledge didn't let bogus narrative sit out there to be taken as true.
You have revealed that you have no idea whatsoever about any of this and are driven to comment based purely on ideology uniformed by actual facts. You thereby disqualify yourself as a commentator on the topic. See if you can clear your mind of preconceptions for a moment consider the following.
You can write all the nonsense you want; the fact is that 1. Septic tanks have nothing to do with 2 acre minimums (if that were the case than half of Long Island would have to be vacated), 2. Septic tanks do not give a jurisdiction license to engage in discriminatory zoning (if septics meant that only single family homes could be built, then obviously the jurisdiction would have to replace the septics with a water system) and 3. The feds have already ruled that Westchester has discriminatory zoning, so you are flat out of excuses (in other words, nothing you write has any relevance unless it deals with actually fixing the discrimination).
Pound Ridge either needs to provide affordable housing, or it will be put out of business. Simple as that. The community has been found to be engaging in racial and economic discrimination, and is mandated to resolve the situation. Excuses about "why" this can't be done are waaaaay past mattering.
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