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while I agree that some efforts can and should be made to try to restrain taxes, curb waste/mismanagement/etc., we just have to be careful. it may not be directly analogous, but California used to have great schools and high taxes, and then they arguably went a bit overboard with tax cuts for the schools, and now many areas that historically had great schools do not. (and they still have a state government teetering on the brink of insolvency). while I agree with havoc that there probably are not that many exit opportunities for teachers with comparable salaries and benefits (dma's company notwithstanding), we as a county should approach this topic very carefully. one possibility is to remove pension vesting until 25/30 years of svc (if this does not already exist), or some combination of age/years. and also prevent the common policy of giving "artificial" raises to teachers and administrators in the last year or so of career to give artificial bump-up to pension amount, under a theory that pension costs are borne by whole state, not just individual community (somehow the teachers are dense enough, or think the rest of us are, to not realize if every community does this, it ultimately affects all equally)
By 4pm, the school building is empty. Teacher, staff, principle all go home. Only guy there is the cleaning person.
Wow PEmom, I take offense to that comment. What school is this? Is this every day or a Friday in June? Maybe during the last few weeks of school when there isn't much planning or grading left, but I'm pretty sure that in the middle of the year there are plenty of teachers in the building at 4pm and to imply otherwise is simply ignorant. I have put in plenty of years arriving at school at 7:30 and leaving at 5 or later, in order to get all of my planning, grading, and room set up done. Granted, I never took work home, but I was NOT the only person in the building that's for sure.
I don't want to get involved in the pay debate going on here because I see both sides, but why the hatred for teachers? Geez...
Pensions will eventually bankrupt school districts. Much like the reports that social security will eventually run out, the problem with pensions is far worse. As town populations rapidly expanded, pensions were possible. But as populations have stabilized, and more and more teachers retire, and live longer and longer... The math just doesn't work. Imagine 90% of your property tax bill going to pay pensions for teachers, cops, etc.
The smartest thing to do, is probably emulate the private sector. Give teachers a 401k, maybe with a match of 3-5%.
As to salaries--- right now they get a grade bump every year, PLUS an automatic-inflationary raise. Make the pay grade increases merit-based. And make sure the inflationary increase is tied to inflation. (in many contracts, there may be an inflationary increase of 3-4% per year, even when inflation is only 1-2%).
Thus, give a great teacher a 8% raise. A good teacher, a 5% raise. And a fair teacher, 2%.
...while I agree with havoc that there probably are not that many exit opportunities for teachers with comparable salaries and benefits (dma's company notwithstanding)...
I feel compelled to clarify that I was not referring to one company but rather to a large and profitable industry. Educational publishing is a multi-billion dollar industry that hires a huge number of mostly former teachers in product development, editorial, marketing, and sales positions. While it is no longer solely centered here, NYC and environs is still the main hub of the industry, with a large number of companies (many of which are hiring now).
Quote:
Originally Posted by havoc315
As to salaries--- right now they get a grade bump every year, PLUS an automatic-inflationary raise. Make the pay grade increases merit-based. And make sure the inflationary increase is tied to inflation. (in many contracts, there may be an inflationary increase of 3-4% per year, even when inflation is only 1-2%).
Thus, give a great teacher a 8% raise. A good teacher, a 5% raise. And a fair teacher, 2%.
That I totally agree with. As I said before, schools need to be run as a meritocracy, with the best being rewarded and the worst being fired.
The problem of course is how to determine who is the "great" teacher. Many want to tie that decision to test scores, which is really about the stupidest idea one could have. First off, standardized tests don't measure how well a topic has been taught--they measure how well a test has been taught. If you tie teacher pay to test scores, you will be telling teachers to teach to the test and to make test-prep the primary focus--and you can forget about students ever really learning anything.
The answer is to give schools more freedom over these crtiical decisions. Rather than pushing centralization, we need to empower the small districts and individual schools to decide who to hire, who to fire, who is doing a good job, and how to spend their budgets.
As to salaries--- right now they get a grade bump every year, PLUS an automatic-inflationary raise. Make the pay grade increases merit-based. And make sure the inflationary increase is tied to inflation. (in many contracts, there may be an inflationary increase of 3-4% per year, even when inflation is only 1-2%).
Thus, give a great teacher a 8% raise. A good teacher, a 5% raise. And a fair teacher, 2%.
How do you determine "merit" pay? As a teacher, it is very clear to me and most everyone else in a school who the "good" teachers are and who the "bad" teachers are, but this is based on many many factors, none of which are quantifiable. And please don't tell me to use test scores. Ridiculous. How do you use them? Compare year over year and increase and decrease pay accordingly? So one year I had a wonderful group of 22 4th graders, and few IEPs but totally manageable, and we had an absolutely great year. The next I get a class of 32 (you read that right) with 6 new transfer students who badly need a smaller setting for emotional problems but have NO IEP (how this happens is beyond me) and are reading 2+ grade levels behind, and now my pay goes down because of these things which are out of my control?
Listen, I'm with you for the most part. I would totally get rid of the unions and give principals more power to hire and fire as they see fit. Maybe pay raises should be smaller, pensions could be retooled... I understand the problem. But what makes every teacher's blood boil is people who know NOTHING about the day-to-day job of teacher suggesting that merit pay be used to determine salaries and raises. Just because you went to school as a kid doesn't mean you know anything about a teacher's job.
I feel compelled to clarify that I was not referring to one company but rather to a large and profitable industry. Educational publishing is a multi-billion dollar industry that hires a huge number of mostly former teachers in product development, editorial, marketing, and sales positions. While it is no longer solely centered here, NYC and environs is still the main hub of the industry, with a large number of companies (many of which are hiring now).
That I totally agree with. As I said before, schools need to be run as a meritocracy, with the best being rewarded and the worst being fired.
The problem of course is how to determine who is the "great" teacher. Many want to tie that decision to test scores, which is really about the stupidest idea one could have. First off, standardized tests don't measure how well a topic has been taught--they measure how well a test has been taught. If you tie teacher pay to test scores, you will be telling teachers to teach to the test and to make test-prep the primary focus--and you can forget about students ever really learning anything.
The answer is to give schools more freedom over these crtiical decisions. Rather than pushing centralization, we need to empower the small districts and individual schools to decide who to hire, who to fire, who is doing a good job, and how to spend their budgets.
Yes, we agree on merit pay. But I still think you overstate the opportunities for most teachers in the private sector. I do know a few teachers, and every single one, would jump at the type of job that you describe. Sure, they might hire a "huge number" -- But that's relative. There are over a hundred thousand teachers in the New York area.... How many 200k education publishing jobs, for people with no experience in publishing or writing... Are there tens of thousands of such 200k jobs for people with no writing or publishing experience? Are hundreds of gym teachers being wined and dined by the publishing industry to lure them away? How many 200k jobs are there developing 10th grade history text books? (I actually know someone who worked in education publishing, developing history text books... and they made less than 100k per year doing it). Thousands of such jobs?
How do you determine "merit" pay? As a teacher, it is very clear to me and most everyone else in a school who the "good" teachers are and who the "bad" teachers are, but this is based on many many factors, none of which are quantifiable. And please don't tell me to use test scores.
No, not saying you use test scores. Why should pay raises be any different than the private sector? Within the budget, the superintendent can set aside a dollar amount for pay increases. The principal can allocate the pay increases to the employees (the teachers) as the principal sees fit.
Yes, we agree on merit pay. But I still think you overstate the opportunities for most teachers in the private sector. I do know a few teachers, and every single one, would jump at the type of job that you describe. Sure, they might hire a "huge number" -- But that's relative. There are over a hundred thousand teachers in the New York area.... How many 200k education publishing jobs, for people with no experience in publishing or writing... Are there tens of thousands of such 200k jobs for people with no writing or publishing experience? Are hundreds of gym teachers being wined and dined by the publishing industry to lure them away? How many 200k jobs are there developing 10th grade history text books? (I actually know someone who worked in education publishing, developing history text books... and they made less than 100k per year doing it). Thousands of such jobs?
Gee, I thought I had been so clear. I said that high salaries are needed in order to keep the very best teachers, who are the ones that leave teaching at a very high rate because they can do so much better elesewhere. We're not talking about an opportunity for every teacher, we're talking about opportunites for the top tier. I don't know the total number of jobs in the educational publishing field in our area, but the top companies alone have about 40,000 jobs in the area so I imagine the total is a lot higher than that. How many open positions at any given time? Don' know. Indeed entry level jobs will pay under 100K, but there are tremendous opportunities to grow and make much more than that--in far less than 20 years.
Personally, I want my kid to be taught by the very best people possible. I want people graduating at the top of their class from the very best schools to decide to become teachers. And I do not want them to leave the profession after a few years. I don't want them to stay teaching just for the money---the best people will always be able to make a lot more than the highest paid veteran teacher does. But I don't want the very best people to leave teaching because they can make a lot more in a few years in the private sector. Everyday I work with amazingly smart and talented people, every single one of whom was once a teacher--and those are the people I want teaching my kid.
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