WNC Black Bears (Asheville: home, buying, to live)

[organick]

alot of my answers got included in the blue part above ^^^^^^^^

[the Parkies]

Zimmerdj (OP), as far as black bears go, you don’t need to worry about your pets. Black bears don’t normally go after dogs. But dogs go after black bears, and THAT could definitely be a problem!

To address the larger issue I understand from reading this thread:

I suspect that some of us are seeing the same elephant but from different angles. Surely we all agree on the premise: that human and non-human life often run into conflict and that resolving that conflict ("balancing" life) is key to the peace and harmony on Earth that God intended when He created this beautiful world. HOW we prevent or resolve conflict among animals (including Man) and co-exist in harmony and peace is the ONLY issue here as Bill and I see it.

Our little community in east Asheville, which hugs both the Blue Ridge Parkway and the Swannanoa River, is a microcosm, as I see it, of the greater WNC region we might see and understand better from a 24/7 helicopter. In our community of about a hundred homes set in the forest, we see many kinds of animals including red fox, turkey, snake, rabbit, squirrel, coyote--and black bear. There are certainly many more that we do not see. So how do we live in peace and harmony with them?

Answer: The same way we live in peace and harmony with human beings: WE SIMPLY LOVE THEM!!

Repeat: WE SIMPLY LOVE THEM!!

I won't tell you I rescued the beetle I saw swimming in the (clean) toilet bowl the other day, but I will confess I thought about it before I finally flushed it. That's how sensitive to other life Bill and I have become in the two years we've lived here in these ancient and profoundly spiritual mountains. When we slice worms in half with a shovel, we give thanks that they regenerate to live and to oxygenize and nourish our life-giving soil. We eagerly welcome the turkeys and rabbits and squirrels that add beauty and interest and great fun to our lives. We give thanks when we see a black snake because we know it feeds on rodents and even poisonous snakes, which we have never seen on our property but which we would not kill if we found one. We trust in God’s wisdom to keep the balance of Nature perfect—even on our own little (3/4 acre) property.

Does that mean we don’t hire termite exterminators or kill flies? Of course not. We don’t want critters living in our dwelling any more than critters want us living in theirs! If we met them face-to-face in their dwellings, they’d attack us. When we meet them face-to-face in our dwellings, we attack them. Self-protection is not wrong. Self-defense is natural and normal. But we’re talking, remember, about SELF-DEFENSE.

Okay. So now suppose we saw a BLACK BEAR on our property. What would we do? Run for our shotgun? Call 911?

Heavens, no! WE’D REJOICE! We’d keep respectful distance and ENJOY the experience, realizing with every fiber of our being that we CAN live close to this beautiful animal and both of us be at peace. Praise God!!!

I’m not saying we would welcome an encounter with truly dangerous animals, but we aren’t aware of enough of those to worry about here in WNC. The WNC black bear (the only kind we have here) is NOT the dreaded grizzly bear!! It is in fact ILLEGAL to shoot a black bear unless in true self-defense—and THAT scenario is very rare indeed. If we do not tempt these animals into our garages and homes with clear invitations to eat, they will not bother us! Black bears are DOCILE animals who will attack only if we get unlucky enough to find ourselves between a mother and her young. Even in that case, we just need to back away and let the mother be at peace with her kids, just as you would want (demand) to be with yours....

I’ll end this long post with a short story about our only encounter with a WNC black bear.

We’d been looking forward to sighting a bear for almost two years. Neighbors had seen them often, and we had occasionally seen their tracks, but their trails don’t happen to come through our property. A few months ago, one of them happened to wander by--about 30 feet away from us, separated from us only by a 12-foot slope—an easy leap for a bear—

We were standing on our driveway, bidding goodnight to friends. One of them spotted the bear and thought it must be a sculpture, profiled in the early dusk. Knowing we don’t have bear sculptures around here, we eagerly followed the friend’s gaze.....

There it was, as simple and yet magnificent as anything we’d ever seen in our lives this close up and free. We stared in wonder, of course. But the most amazing part was that we felt absolutely no panic, no fear, not even tension—only a calm sense of pure AWE. We watched that amazing animal make a 180-degree turn and slowly saunter alongside our neighbor’s house toward its habitual trail beside our OTHER neighbor’s house.

Imagine! That black bear sensed our sudden presence on the driveway and simply turned and walked away, calmly and hospitably, from property to property, to return to its own habitual and comfortable space. Think about that....

As Bill and I see it, we live with other animals in mutual respect and concern, just as we do with human beings. We believe we EVOLVE in our respect and concern for--and enjoyment of!--the natural world. For years I used to marvel and laugh at Bill when he removed a spider from our house instead of killing it. Now we both move house bugs outside. We see no reason to kill them, and every reason not to. Some day soon, I might even find a hygienic way to rescue that little beetle swimming in the toilet bowl toward Life.....

Please pray with us that all of God’s creatures will respect and protect one another and live together in peace and harmony, at the same time learning to recognize and respect one another’s natural life-preserving boundaries!

[organick]

Thanks Parkies,

this planet is a big circle of life dependent on ALL living creatures.

Kinda reminds me of the story of the jellyfish being asked about life and evolution.....Long story short the story ends from his perspective with the evolution of the jellyfish. We have to remember what a really small part of the world we are.

[NC_Paddler]

Originally Posted by organick

A " bear problem" which has been created by humans.....Humans who move into bear country and then scream that there is a bear problem because a bear gets into there trash and they want the bear removed or killed.

For starters, no one in this thread is claiming that bears should be killed. Major straw man.

Second, as I've already explained, bear populations have exploded recently, so bears are moving into areas that they didn't previously exist, at least in recent history.

Third, as I've already explained, you can't just arbitrarily contend that x, y or z plot of land is "bear country" and that human inhabitants are not allowed. In order for your argument to hold any weight whatsoever, you would have to define what "bear country" is and what "human country" is. Is *everything* bear country? The piece of land that you currently occupy was no doubt at one point bear country, until you or someone before you displaced them.

Not to mention all of the squirrels, rabbits, snakes, birds and other wildlife that get displaced with *any* kind of development. Are bears more important than rabbits? If so, why?

If *every* piece of land is "bear country", then the only way to stop displacing them is to stop reproducing, which of course is ridiculous.

So where do you draw the line? Lofty platitudes and generalizations aside, we need some specifics if we're to take your position seriously.

I find your whole argument to be human centered, as if we somehow have more rights on this planet than any other species. If you cant see that the whole planet has a human problem than you are not looking very hard. No other species in the history of the universe has come anywhere close to doing the damage that we have with our selfish, ego-centric attitudes towards nature and non-human species.

Straw man. It's obvious you don't even understand my argument, so I'm not sure that you're qualified to make that judgment. The reality is that human beings are at the top of the food chain, and so we have great power to affect the rest of the world -- a power that we should use carefully and respectfully given the interconnectedness of all living things. But that doesn't make your "argument" any less specious.

On the other hand, your position is typical of the misanthropic, anti-human attitudes prevalent in some circles.

If human beings are so stupid and selfish and bad for the environment, then I presume you don't have any children?

[organick]

Originally Posted by NC_Paddler

For starters, no one in this thread is claiming that bears should be killed. Major straw man.

Second, as I've already explained, bear populations have exploded recently, so bears are moving into areas that they didn't previously exist, at least in recent history.

Never said anyone in this thread was suggesting to kill bears (although the take a gun hunting idea might support that) But I also know what the reality is, there are people not on this thread.

Again you are ignoring the fact that human development is segregating wildlife habitat. I spend at least 10 hours in the woods every week and the last time I saw a bear in the woods was 3+ years ago. On the contrary I have seen several bears crossing roads in areas that have a high concenration of new developing. The issue is not bear over population. If it was they would be much more prevelant everywhere, the issue is divided and disappearing habitat. I again refer you to the defenders of wildlife.....Black Bear - Ursus americanus - Defenders of Wildlife





[/quote] Third, as I've already explained, you can't just arbitrarily contend that x, y or z plot of land is "bear country" and that human inhabitants are not allowed. In order for your argument to hold any weight whatsoever, you would have to define what "bear country" is and what "human country" is. Is *everything* bear country? The piece of land that you currently occupy was no doubt at one point bear country, until you or someone before you displaced them.[/quote]

It is not arbitrary at all, the only thing arbitrary is your concept that humans are more entitled to everything than every other species. You again contradict your own argument of "balance". But I guess it must be thoose bears overpopulating again.


[/quote] Not to mention all of the squirrels, rabbits, snakes, birds and other wildlife that get displaced with *any* kind of development. Are bears more important than rabbits? If so, why? [/quote]

This thread was started about bears, we have no right to claim greatness over any of the other mentioned or unmentioned species either.

[/quote]If *every* piece of land is "bear country", then the only way to stop displacing them is to stop reproducing, which of course is ridiculous.

So where do you draw the line? Lofty platitudes and generalizations aside, we need some specifics if we're to take your position seriously.[/quote]

Extremely contradictory again...I ask you where do we draw the line?? When we eliminate their habitat completly? When humans cause even more species to vanish from the earth? Or shall you argue that we have not done that either?



[/quote]Straw man. It's obvious you don't even understand my argument, so I'm not sure that you're qualified to make that judgment. The reality is that human beings are at the top of the food chain, and so we have great power to affect the rest of the world -- a power that we should use carefully and respectfully given the interconnectedness of all living things. But that doesn't make your "argument" any less specious.[/quote]

Correct we as a higher functioning being have the power to affect the world.....but how? What exactly is your argument for respect? I must have missed the details Being at the top of the food chain means nothing because when we rot out the base we will fall on our a**. Becaused we evolved bigger brains and opposable thumbs does mean we get to direct nature it means we have a duty to preserve this planet. A duty we are failing at awfully. The planet will survive long after us but how many other species will we take with us.

[/quote]On the other hand, your position is typical of the misanthropic, anti-human attitudes prevalent in some circles. [/quote]

Not sure what circle you are trying to put me now as it seems you like to group and define people. I don't have an anti-human attitude at all. I have an anti ignorance attitude, an anti selfishness attitude, an attitude that is anti your concept that humans are the end all and be all of this planet an we have some inalienable rights to do as we please but argue we are trying to achieve balance.


[/quote]If human beings are so stupid and selfish and bad for the environment, then I presume you don't have any children? [/quote]

As you like to say. Straw Man. I never said all humans are bad or selfish. There are a relatively small percentage of them tat still understand the real concept of living in unison with other creatures.

We have no authority to choose the destiny of another species. Your argument of poulation growth is insignificant as it does not matter how many bears there are as long as we continue to harm their habitat we are harming the species.

Well as you said if people stopped having babies we would cease to exist. I firmly believe no one should have more than one child to replace themselves. Conscious people raise conscious children.

[the Parkies]

Okay, you two...... I've been having second thoughts about rescuing bugs in the toilet bowl, but now you've got me on the fence again.....

[organick]

no, rescue them. they are no less important than bears. I mean if we had no ants we would all be dead rather quickly.

[NC_Paddler]

Moderator cut: flaming

You claimed that "humans are encroaching on the bear's territory". In order for that claim to hold any weight whatsoever, you have to define what is considered the bear's territory and what is considered the human's territory.


Moderator cut: flaming

Encroachment implies ownership . . . one can't encroach on anything unless there is an owner who is being encroached upon. Do you follow?

So who does the land belong to? The bears? If so, then by extension, the land that you currently occupy is owned by the squirrels and rabbits and birds and snakes that you have obviously displaced by occupying that land, and you are just another one of those bad, selfish humans that you claim not to be. After all, what gives you the right to displace those innocent, furry critters so that you can impose your massive, arrogant, human footprint on the land with your big house, truck, tools, and other bad human children who are also sucking up the earth's resources at the expense of the good, innocent, furry critters.

Now if some land belongs to the bears and other to the humans, then you need to clearly define who owns what. Otherwise, your "argument" is so specious and vague as to be useless, other than to provide you an opportunity to preach your anti-human, misanthropic philosophy from your imagined electronic pulpit.

Moderator cut: flaming

[organick]

Originally Posted by NC_Paddler

It's really not that complicated, and you seem to be dodging the issue, but I'll give it one more try.

You claimed that "humans are encroaching on the bear's territory". In order for that claim to hold any weight whatsoever, you have to define what is considered the bear's territory and what is considered the human's territory.

Do you understand that?

Encroachment implies ownership . . . one can't encroach on anything unless there is an owner who is being encroached upon. Do you follow?

So who does the land belong to? The bears? If so, then by extension, the land that you currently occupy is owned by the squirrels and rabbits and birds and snakes that you have obviously displaced by occupying that land, and you are just another one of those bad, selfish humans that you claim not to be. After all, what gives you the right to displace those innocent, furry critters so that you can impose your massive, arrogant, human footprint on the land with your big house, truck, tools, and other bad human children who are also sucking up the earth's resources at the expense of the good, innocent, furry critters.

Now if some land belongs to the bears and other to the humans, then you need to clearly define who owns what. Otherwise, your "argument" is so specious and vague as to be useless, other than to provide you an opportunity to preach your anti-human, misanthropic philosophy from your imagined electronic pulpit.

Capiche?

Moderator cut: flaming

Secondly I am not dodging anything. All you keep doing in reinforcing my argument that you believe humans have an inalienable right to do as they please where they please, you have not posed any actual reason or support for your argument. Twice now I have posted information from a wildlife organization which clearly states a concern for bear habitat.

Perhaps this will make a little more sense to you. Directly from the Great smoley mountain national park page.

" Urban Encroachment: Community and private developments near park boundaries are causing a loss in habitat for the bears. Poaching activities can be somewhat curtailed, and bear populations can eventually rebound from the losses. But once the critical habitats are destroyed, major declines in bear populations are inevitable. In addition, bears that venture outside park boundaries into neighboring communities may encounter human food and become unpredictable and dangerous "nuisance" bears."


I am very unsure why you seem tofind it so hard to understand the concept but thanks for the one more try boss

If it was up to me the way development has happened would be much different but no one offered me that job. I dont find the concept that consistently building new developments in the middle of bear habitats (or any other animals habitats) and building roads through them is going to harm the population that mind boggling but apparently you do.

Please do everyone on here a favor and stop jumping into things with no backup, you have presented not one single piece of anything to go along with your argument.

Here is another from the SC Dept of natural Resources. I can keep posting this info all day. Until you have some to back you up please don't respond its just annoying.

CHALLENGES
The primary challenge to South Carolina’s bear population appears to be residential and
commercial development. Human populations in the counties with existing bear populations
grew 20.1 percent from 1990 to 2000. Persons per square mile averaged 213.4. Thirty-three
percent of the human populations in the six counties mentioned live in a rural environment (SC
Statistical Abstract 2005; US Census Bureau). Humans have varying reactions to bears but
generally do not tolerate bear activity near residential or commercial development. Bear hunting
has also been controversial in many states (Maryland and New Jersey Status Reports 2003).
The coastal bear population is becoming more fragmented due to highway construction,
urbanization and general development. More protected contiguous acreage is available for the
mountain population but human population growth and subsequent development adjacent to and
between these properties may preclude expansion and fragment the population. Some areas of
the state offer good bear habitat but are isolated from current bear populations by development.
Education of the general public is the key component to bear population expansion and, in some
areas, survival. While bear learn to live with people, people have a hard time living around bears.
Educational programs, bear-proof demonstration kits and displays and brochures are all
effective.

[NC_Paddler]

NC_Paddler asks:

"In order for your argument to hold any weight whatsoever, you would have to define what "bear country" is and what "human country" is. Is *everything* bear country?"

Organick responds:

with a lot of "information", but doesn't actually answer the question.

I've obviously assumed waaaaay too much. My bad.

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