four wheel drive on ice (Asheville, Lenoir: HOA, house, neighborhood) - The Mountain Region including Asheville - City-Data Forum

the Parkies · 12-20-2009, 11:42 PM

It's not like I need to win this argument, folks. I'm just trying to keep us and others safe. Please help!

According to local TV weather forecasts, Asheville roads and highways will be “icy” today (Monday) and "treacherous" until "around 11:00 AM or 12:00 noon" when temperatures will have climbed and the sun will have melted the ice--"but it depends on where you live."

We live a mile and a half off Highway 70 up a narrow, winding two-lane road that follows the course of the Swannanoa River. That road has no shoulders. One car slid off of it on Saturday, fortunately missing the river. A truck still lies on its side. A neighbor tried hard to get out to get his wife some medicine, but his wheels kept spinning out. When I offered to get it with our four-wheel drive, he said he didn't think that would be reliable, either--"not in this kind of snow."

All of that was before we had ICE to worry about. Today we have ICE on Asheville roads, some roads more than others, "depending on where you live."

So, wouldn’t you know it... my husband Bill wants to drive (with me) to Hendersonville today to finally pick up our new car. The man he sold our "old" car to is also excited about meeting us there to take possession. I have only to imagine bringing a new puppy home to understand how Bill feels about bringing home “his” new car. He’s been so excited! I'm happy for him!

The problem is that both our new and "old" cars (small SUVs) have four-wheel drive, and he believes that four-wheel-drive will give us an advantage on ice. He reminds me, also, that we're not talking about driving on an ice rink, after all.

I tell him that NO vehicle can have any control on ICE. (We don't own chains, by the way, and they wouldn’t be practical in this scenario anyway.) I explain that if there are even *patches* of ice big enough for four tires to land on, we'll be out of control no matter how safe the rest of the road is. Yes--we may be out of control and then back *in* control... and then back *out*... but I wouldn't risk driving on *patches* of ice any more than I'd risk driving on an ice rink! Why not just wait another day to pick up the new car??? (But if it were that 12-week-old toy poodle waiting for me, I’d want to *crawl* to it!)

In the end, women are from Venus and men are from Mars. Bill is *going* to try to get to Hendersonville and back today unless I shout and throw things (and I don't want to). Or unless he listens to you!

"OH," he mentions as he's turning in, "don't worry about the driveway. We'll maneuver our way out." Then he’s sorry he said that. He knows I’ll add that to my worry list.

Our driveway hasn't been shoveled, and we can’t shovel it. It's been calf-deep in snow, which now will be ICY. It's on a definite downward slope. At the bottom of the slope, we have to make a sharp turn onto the road. If we miss that turn, we could go down an embankment. And I'm not to worry about that?? We'll "maneuver our way out"?? Or did he mean we'll maneuver the car a bit to see *whether* we have enough traction to get out? I don't remember anything past "don't worry about the driveway."

Help! How do we know when it's safe to leave home? Do we wait until 2:00 P.M. to see if we can walk on the driveway without falling? Do we sit on the driveway and throw salt? (We don't have sand.) What do we do, exactly, if we really really really want to drive away today?? I *might* be able to reach our HOA president for community road information--the roads were plowed yesterday--but then there's that driveway thing....

Does Bill need to give up on getting his new car today? Or does Jan need to let go of her worrying?

lovesMountains · 12-20-2009, 11:53 PM

Jan, I'm with you - as a long time resident of NC and a veteran of a lot of ice storms I'm here to tell you - NO ONE can drive on ice, though a lot of newcomers will try. It's just not a good plan at all. And I do a lot of mountain driving but I wouldn't even drive on a flat city street if it were covered in ice.

Tell Bill to wait a day or two or I'M going to throw something at him!

hymnsinger · 12-21-2009, 01:44 AM

Ditto!!! BIGTIME!!! Studs and/or chains for ice, only if it's an emergency. Four wheels slip just as effectively as two!! I'm sitting tight until at least 2 PM and I'm down near Lenoir!

Please Please Please Bill, its not worth the risk to life, limb, property, or pride!

Pride leads the way into the ditch! (Pride goeth before a fall!)

gigimac · 12-21-2009, 05:30 AM

Until your husband has spun around on ice, he cannot know the intense fear that comes with losing control of a 2,000-pound vehicle in a HUGE hurry. You can think you're going slow, but when the back end goes out and the car zooms sideways OFF the road, it seems like you're going 100 mph. NOBODY who lives up here attempts driving on ice for that very reason, especially on secondary roads where the snowplows don't go (if at all) until several days into a winter event like we've had.

As for the four-wheel drive myth, that does not stop rubber from skiding on ice. In soft snow or halfway melted and crunchy ice, you got a little better chance with four-wheel is the idea. But now, today, even tho the snow might melt somewhat by noon, since your road has cars that are still stuck on it, and the road is winding, no shoulders to stop you from sliding into the river, even tho SOME melting will occur, we had over a foot of snow, so some of that ISN'T going to melt, and when your tires hit that part, it's gonna skid away into the hinterlands. Years ago I was riding in a car in midnight snow, and the car went straight in a curve, down a ravine, and rescue had to carry us out and I wound up in the hospital for two months.

Keep in mind YOU have the power in this conflict, because you can simply say, "I ain't going," and he won't have any choice but to wait it out, becuz he needs you to get the car back to the house. In any case, if at noon today he can walk down the driveway and down the street a few blocks and not slip and fall on his rear, then he (by himself) can attempt to test drive down to the end of the road where it empties out onto Hwy 70, and then return to get you, and you can then feel pretty confident that it'll be okay. But before you two head out, call the car place, becuz it's probably not open.

Now, today, if he cannot either walk or drive down your little stretch of road on his own without slipping, you'll have to wait again until Tuesday at noon (the roads re-freeze every night), and he can do the walking and short-ride test again, until it is safe. Oh, and he needs to have his cell phone with him in case his test drives don't work out like he thinks it will.

Mark-faf · 12-21-2009, 07:25 AM

Here are a couple of 4WD VS. ice tidbits from New England.

I was living on a hilly dirt road in Vermont in the 90's. Back then my wife and I had 3 vehicles and because of where we lived and our job requirements they were all 4WD or AWD. It's Christmas Eve and we are all packed for our 2.5 hour trek to MA to visit our families. The weather didn't seem bad, just a little drizzle and the temp was just above freezing, but we were warming up after a long frigid spell. We got down our long driveway to our road in my AWD Subaru and the road was smooth glazed ice. We had NO traction. It seemed we would slide off the road, or into our mailbox. Keep in mind, this was the same vehicle that had climbed our long steep driveway over 6-10 inches of unplowed snow on several occasions. It took some effort, white knuckles, and prayers, but we were able to maneuver the car back onto the edge of our driveway. We called the family and explained. I learned a lot that day.

The other thing has become almost a running gag around here. I used to drive an intercity bus route between Boston and NH, about a 2.5 hour ride. During winter weather I'd keep track of the vehicles that left the road or had accidents. At least 80% of them were 4WD. So many Explorers, Jeeps, and 4WD Ford and Chevy pickups. These knuckleheads thought their "tough" vehicles could go through anything. Whenever I'd get passed at a ridiculous speed for the conditions, I would remember the vehicle and numerous times it would crash or flip down the road. Keep in mind these are New England drivers for the most part, no strangers to snow, unlike NC where those conditions are less frequent.

4WD and especially full time AWD offers a great advantage in snow, particularly when climbing hills. It's important to respect the conditions and drive prudently. But on ice, all bets are off.

Don't be a knucklehead!

SunnyKayak · 12-21-2009, 07:33 AM

ooh just let them navigate when Icy the Tail Of The Dragon

Raine Carraway · 12-21-2009, 07:45 AM

Well, looks like everyone who's tried or seen it agrees that 4wd doesn't help on ice, and I'll throw in my agreement, too. The only time I ever "spun out" on ice was in a 4 wheel drive Blazer, on an icy road, trying to get to work because my supervisor assured me the roads were ok [they may have been 4 hours earlier, when he had come in - I was on a split shift that night]. I think, if anything, the 4 wheel drive gives people a false sense of confidence and makes them think they don't have to drive as carefully as they would otherwise.

Loves mountains · 12-21-2009, 08:26 AM

Jan - I've seen your driveway and if it's snow covered and icy - there's no way you are going to get out of your neighborhood. Bill lived in Southern CA all of his life - he does not have a lot of experience driving in snow - let alone ice and no 4-wheel vehicle can drive on ice - please don't go out if they are telling you the roads around Asheville are icy. STAY HOME TODAY! I can't even reach my friends in Madison County - they are still without power and phones.

SteelCityGirl57 · 12-21-2009, 09:34 AM

Jan: Best advice from one with extensive travel experience in all kinds of weather conditions... Stay home. Wait it out for a couple of days. Why risk anything? Absolutely not worth it. Ice, as others have stated, is not something you want to encounter. Plus the roads and the general area have not recovered enough from the storm yet. Good luck with your new vehicle... and with the Asheville snow!

the Parkies · 12-21-2009, 09:57 AM

Thank you all very much! You've helped educate my Southern California husband (I'm from PA)--his eyes are wide open now--and we're staying home today, then evaluating things one day at a time. The road between our house and highway 70, we just learned, has not been plowed and is snow and ice, according to our HOA president. Our community was plowed but not the connecting road that runs along the river. Wow. That car will have to wait.