NYC to Madison with wife and three boys under 5 (Milwaukee: cul-de-sac, daycare)

[Water 4 the Pool]

(I also put this on the Madison board but not a lot of action over there...)

I am deep in the interview process with a Madison company and would love to hear from any people who relocated there from somewhere else. My wife and I have lived in Manhattan for 13 years but are originally from the Midwest (me from MI and she from Beaver Dam, WI). For family reasons, Milwaukee has generally been at the top of our list of possible places to move but I'm trying to determine if I should hold out for a job in MKE or make the move to Madison if the interviews go well.

We have three boys, ages 4 and under, so schools--public or private--are critical. Neither of us is fond of new suburbs/exurbs with cul-de-sacs--we are seeking a real, established neighborhood, with sidewalks that people actually use, good schools, parks, restaurants and stores/shops.

A few questions:

1. I grew up on Lake Michigan and would love to live on or near a local lake, which I heard are plentiful. Any neighborhood suggestions?
2. I've heard it's hard to meet other families/couples, particularly if you're not from there. Wife's cousin moved there and said people generally talk a lot about high school. Any truth to this?
3. I'm Swedish, so can I get lutefisk?!?!

Please no NYC bashing! We really love Manhattan and the opportunities for our kids are incomparable, but the expense is so insane ($35k tuition for the kindergarten of choice) that it's time for something new.

Cheers!

P.S.--If this thread looks familiar, it's because I started similar threads for Milwaukee and Minneapolis over the past couple of years but the jobs weren't the right fit or weren't offered.

[FABRAZ]

I would take Madison over Milwaukee any day! I went to school there and then worked there for a few years as well. If you are looking for a great preschool Creative Learning downtown is wonderful. They use cloth diapers, have an onsite cook, and take the kids to the farmers market on Wednesday. The eastside neighbhorhoods are where it's at for families in Madison. Atwood, Willy St., or Tenny Park are great neighborhoods where you can walk to coffee shops, great ethnic food, and the local co-op. The new Goodman Community Center is also in this area. It definitely feels smaller than Milwaukee but has such a great sense of community. Lots of festivals in the summer and the people smart and friendly. I've lived all over the U.S and am currently in Brazil, and I still miss the food and people in Madison. You should check out the Isthmus, it's Madison daily online paper.

[Milwaukee City]

I would take Milwaukee over madison any day. Mainly because I am more of a city person and enjoy going out to restaurants, festivals IE "The City of Festivals", Sporting events, art shows and local museums. Also for someone who loves to live on the water I don't think I could ever go boating on a smaller lake after having spent so much time on Lake Michigan. Waukesha county north of I94 aka Lake Country has a lot of lakes and great terrain. Milwaukee has many great neighborhoods and great suburbs as well. Milwaukee has great architecture as well, older urban suburbs that don't feel like suburbs like Wauwatosa, Shorewood, Whitefish Bay and St.Francis. Some of the great neighborhoods of Milwaukee are Murray Hill, Upper and Lower East Side, Walker's point, Washington Heights, BayView, Third Ward, Brewers Hill, Story Hill, I like Avenues West but it is a lot more grittier than any other of the neighborhoods I mentioned.

If you cannot meet people in Milwaukee it says more about you than the people. At least that has been my experience. If you need more specifics just ask.

[drawk04]

milwaukee has more of a nightlife, think of it as a mini chicago. madison is nice, whoever says the east side is better than the west is sadly mistaken..the west side is a lot more classy and in tune with reality, the setup is a lot easier to navigate around. Also you might want to consider some of the urbs, like Middleton or Verona....great schools and very close to Madison.

[marnitalane]

UGH. Milwaukee is horrible compared to Madison. And the person from Brazil was not barking up the right tree unless you are from Brookyn, NY.... then you might like the whole east side/cloth diapers thing. Clearly, as a Manhattanite who grew up on the shores of Lake Michigan, you are looking for a gentrified neighborhood in Madison. For that you really only have 2 good choices. Nakoma -classy, old, good location but, alas, not on a lake. (Easy access to Lake Wingra and the Arboretum, though.) Shorewood - ON the lake, classy, old, OK location. Maple Bluff could be your 3rd choice but it doesn't compare to the feel of Shorewood or Nakoma. It is on the lake, though.

[Milwaukee City]

Originally Posted by marnitalane

UGH. Milwaukee is horrible compared to Madison.

Yeah okay, this is the same person who said Verona had a lot of diversity and madison has a lot of really bad schools. Verona's is 98% white, Madison for the most part doesn't have really bad schools since it's not that large yet.

This person probably has never lived in MKE or been out of the state much.

[marnitalane]

I said Verona's SCHOOLS have a lot of diversity - not Verona itself, though. I am not from Wisconsin and I have lived in Chicago and Portland, and have many relatives and friends in Milwaukee and its suburbs.

[Snixy]

My family just did an opposite move a few months ago! We are former MKE and Madison residents that moved out here when my husband's company transferred him to their Manhattan office.

What kind of culture/"look" do you want in Madison? Do you want to live in the city or are you open to the suburbs as well? From my experience, the west side of town (including Middleton & Verona) tends to be a bit more affluent and has larger homes and more new subdivisions. The east side tends to be a younger population, a little more counter-culture, and has more old homes. I would definitely recommend the near-west side (Nakoma, Monroe St, Wingra). It is a beautiful area (older homes, well-established neighborhood), good access to highways and the capitol/isthmus, near the Vilas Zoo (free), and good for walking/biking. It has great Madison "flavor" without being too overrun by UW students or too cookie-cutter like the far west side. I would consider it to rather similar to Montclair, NJ (if that's an area you are familiar with). Lake Wingra is right in the neighborhood and its a quick drive or very reasonable bike ride to lakes Monona/Mendota. Overall, the Madison area is great and you shouldn't have any problem finding quality schools for your kids.

If you are looking for preschool/daycare I would HIGHLY recommend Kids Junction Learning Center (Madison Preschool Learning Center | Child Care | Daycare) on the west side of town. I worked for them for about a year - they are a bit pricey by WI standards but will seem cheap compared to NYC. Large, beautiful center, well qualified teachers, and the owners genuinely love the children and care about making things work for the families. It's a Christian center, but the student population is quite diverse. As far as public schools, they are all pretty good, and most of the families I know generally chose private schools because of religious affiliation rather than concerns over performance or safety.

I don't think you'll have any trouble meeting people if you choose a "real" neighborhood vs. a "McNeighborhood" I found it to be one of the friendliest cities I've lived in. As for lutefisk... it scares the hell out of me, so I'm no expert, but I've only been able to find it on the far west side of the state in Black River Falls/Jackson county (where all my Scandinavian relatives live). Maybe try New Glarus (its pretty close to Madison and they have a killer brewery).

If you choose Milwaukee (and live in the city) you will probably want to factor private school tuition into your budget. MPS is one of the lowest performing districts in the entire country. Yes, there are some great schools, teachers, and programs in the district, but overall performance and graduation is very low. However, you can work in Milwaukee and live in suburbs with EXCELLENT schools (Oconomowoc/Arrowhead (Delafield/Chenequa)/Kettle Moraine and Oak Creek/Greendale/New Berlin all come to mind). That doesn't mean Milwaukee is a bad place - I love it for the culture, diversity, and nightlife that just doesn't exist elsewhere in Wisconsin, but if great schools are a concern, it might not be right for your family.

[7G9C4J2]

Much as I love Madison myself, if you are moving from Manhattan, I suspect you would prefer Milwaukee. Madison is not by ANY stretch of the imagination a big city/booming metropolis type of place, and if you are accustomed to the excitement and wide array of activities available to Manhattanites, I'm guessing you'd go stir-crazy here. There is a whole lot more going on in Milwaukee than you'll ever find in Madison.

As to your concerns about meeting and befriending other couples and families, I'm guessing that you've heard about "Midwestern Nice," as it's sometimes called. Folks hereabouts tend to be polite and friendly, but not effusive and demonstrative, if that makes sense. They'll wave to you when they see you, pass the time of day when they meet you, but they probably won't immediately clap you on the back and invite you over to grill brats with them.

I have to say that there is a fair amount of truth in that stereotype. Garrison Keillor jokes about "shy Norwegian bachelor farmers" quite a bit, but a lot of them did actually settle around here, and the basic mindset is still pretty easy to find to this day.

I've found the best way to get a foot in the door in a Midwestern community is to find a particular group or organization that resonates with your values, and spend some time volunteering there. For many, that's a church or synagogue or other religious center. Could be a community center, a youth sports group, a food pantry, a literacy center, or the library. In our experience, when we're working with other like-minded individuals on a common goal, conversation comes more easily, and friendships develop as a result.

That's another reason why Milwaukee might be a better choice for you: there are more people, more groups, more organizations, and hence a much greater likelihood that you'll connect with folks who'll become friends. But of course it can certainly be done in Madison, too; if you wind up here instead of Milwaukee, see if you can hunt up a copy of the Annual Manual that the Isthmus puts out each year, to find a comprehensive listing of all the different groups and organizations that have a presence in the area.

Good luck to you in any case. It'll be a pretty big shift of assumptions and lifestyle to go from NYC to Wisconsin, but if you're both from the Midwest originally, hopefully it won't be an overwhelming change. Hope you wind up in a place you love, wherever that is.