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Old 04-03-2014, 10:57 PM
 
Location: Bay View, Milwaukee
2,195 posts, read 4,208,151 times
Reputation: 2769

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Quote:
Originally Posted by northbound74 View Post

My current jobs takes me quite a few different places from time to time. Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee.... late model cars everywhere, sparkling new subdivisions, Taj Mahal school buildings in most every town where kids can go on to become doctors, lawyers, high tech whizes just as easily as in other places..... jobs, reasonable COL... and yet they're the ones to be looked down on and pointed out as examples of everything bad in this country. Okee dokee.

Wisconsin's not bad at all, but this absurd notion that cutting taxes (and limiting the power of public sector unions to attack my lower-middle class tax dollar) is going to completely run it into the ground..... get a grip, people.
I've lived in Alabama-- what you describe sounds like the wealthier parts of Huntsville, Birmingham, Tuscaloosa, and maybe a couple of other places. Spend less time in wealthy communities like Mountain Brook, Homewood, or Vestavia Hills and more time in more normal places like Bessemer and Irondale, and you'll see what I mean. On certain highways and roads in Alabama you'll see lots of old money and new money, but most of the state isn't like that.

If you dig into the Alabama scene a bit more deeply, you'll see that wages overall aren't that great, most of the people don't have flashy stuff, and most of the public schools are mediocre at best. Racial segregation is bad in parts of Wisconsin, but in Alabama things are not much better: rich and middle class whites disproportionately send their kids to private "academies." less wealthy whites send their kids to middling public schools, and blacks have access to terrible schools. This situation happens in both urban and rural environments.

In spite of the stories from cities such as Milwaukee, Racine, Beloit, etc., the public schools in Wisconsin are generally successful in graduating students. Graduation rates in Alabama are worse. Graduation data from 2010-2011, released by the U.S. Department of Higher Education, show that the rate in Wisconsin is 87% (ranks 3rd in the nation), and the rate for Alabama is 72% (ranks 40th in the nation).

High School Graduation Rates by State
High School Graduation Rates By State: U.S. Department Of Education Releases First-Ever National Data

A similar study based on 2011-2012 data show Wisconsin in the top quintile (among the top 20% of states) with an 88% rate, and Alabama in the second quintile (in the top half of the bottom 40%) with a 75% rate.

ED Data Express

(Mississippi also performs poorly, but Tennessee is in the top quintile.)

So, are the higher taxes and COL in Wisconsin worth the 15%-or-so differential with regard to Alabama? The answer to that probably comes down to personal preferences and values. Wisconsin has had a reputation as an "education state" where significant numbers of high school students take the ACTs and, to a lesser extent, SATs and go to college; whereas Alabama students tend to focus more on the ACTs, and attend college in lower numbers. There's nothing wrong with either approach, as college is not the only viable option for students.
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Old 04-04-2014, 05:18 AM
 
35,324 posts, read 25,265,824 times
Reputation: 32421
Quote:
Originally Posted by northbound74 View Post
My wife with a graduate degree and higher-up on food chain type of job in the private sector didn't come anywhere near 52k. Neither did I.

In Madison? This example was in Madison, wages are a bit higher in Madison than the rest of the state because COL is higher.

I'm glad you enjoyed the South, I've lived there and worked there, and outside a few places... Athens GA, Nashville, TN and a couple of others, I wouldn't want to live there again. Of course, the nicer places like that are more expensive too. That's the way it works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by milt14 View Post
that's assuming you are talking to normal, working people.

Ok, well, we should assume these "normal, working people" live in Madison and have one or two 4 year degrees and 13 years experience (the dance teacher likely has two, either a MFA or a dance and an ed degree). I sincerely doubt any "normal, working" person in Madison with that pedigree would consider 52k an amazing salary.
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Old 04-04-2014, 08:02 PM
 
432 posts, read 447,025 times
Reputation: 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by GraniteStater View Post
Only if you.....
so you are ignoring what Northbound74 says about he and his wife's experiences and the deciding factors of them not living in wisconsin anymore. Or he and his wife are too stupid to realize that they were wrong in what/how they lived here? Or that he is just lying about it?

don't tell me, you are a leftist and live in madison.....
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Old 04-04-2014, 08:09 PM
 
432 posts, read 447,025 times
Reputation: 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone1 View Post
Please remember that the teacher that you mention making 52k must pay half their pension and approx. 12.8% of their health care premium.
is this the new republican law that gov walker signed into law that caused all the democrats to flee to illinois and have days of rage in madison, etc.?

So that seasonal worker in madison that's a part time dance teacher and part time hall monitor,
$52k is the salary.
What then does the other $27K in benefits per year she gets translate into? if that's only half of their pension costs and 87% of their costs.

Even w/o that almost 30 grand per year free, 52 grand a year is a lot of money, especially for a seasonal employee at a slacker job, even taking out the slacker part, that's a lot of money for so little work.
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Old 04-04-2014, 09:47 PM
 
Location: IN
20,868 posts, read 36,023,332 times
Reputation: 13324
Quote:
Originally Posted by milt14 View Post
so you are ignoring what Northbound74 says about he and his wife's experiences and the deciding factors of them not living in wisconsin anymore. Or he and his wife are too stupid to realize that they were wrong in what/how they lived here? Or that he is just lying about it?

don't tell me, you are a leftist and live in madison.....
I think you need a new hobby. I have lived in many parts of the country, including Madison.
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Old 04-04-2014, 11:04 PM
 
Location: Bay View, Milwaukee
2,195 posts, read 4,208,151 times
Reputation: 2769
Quote:
Originally Posted by milt14 View Post

So that seasonal worker in madison that's a part time dance teacher and part time hall monitor,
$52k is the salary.
What then does the other $27K in benefits per year she gets translate into? if that's only half of their pension costs and 87% of their costs.

Even w/o that almost 30 grand per year free, 52 grand a year is a lot of money, especially for a seasonal employee at a slacker job, even taking out the slacker part, that's a lot of money for so little work.
FYI, it took me about 30 whole seconds of internet searching to find out that the "other" assignment of the dance teacher is working as a reading and literacy tutor and counselor for high school kids who are at risk of falling behind and failing out of school.
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Old 04-05-2014, 06:12 AM
 
3,326 posts, read 7,761,091 times
Reputation: 1973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Empidonax View Post
I've lived in Alabama-- what you describe sounds like the wealthier parts of Huntsville, Birmingham, Tuscaloosa, and maybe a couple of other places. Spend less time in wealthy communities like Mountain Brook, Homewood, or Vestavia Hills and more time in more normal places like Bessemer and Irondale, and you'll see what I mean. On certain highways and roads in Alabama you'll see lots of old money and new money, but most of the state isn't like that.

If you dig into the Alabama scene a bit more deeply, you'll see that wages overall aren't that great, most of the people don't have flashy stuff, and most of the public schools are mediocre at best. Racial segregation is bad in parts of Wisconsin, but in Alabama things are not much better: rich and middle class whites disproportionately send their kids to private "academies." less wealthy whites send their kids to middling public schools, and blacks have access to terrible schools. This situation happens in both urban and rural environments.

In spite of the stories from cities such as Milwaukee, Racine, Beloit, etc., the public schools in Wisconsin are generally successful in graduating students. Graduation rates in Alabama are worse. Graduation data from 2010-2011, released by the U.S. Department of Higher Education, show that the rate in Wisconsin is 87% (ranks 3rd in the nation), and the rate for Alabama is 72% (ranks 40th in the nation).

High School Graduation Rates by State
High School Graduation Rates By State: U.S. Department Of Education Releases First-Ever National Data

A similar study based on 2011-2012 data show Wisconsin in the top quintile (among the top 20% of states) with an 88% rate, and Alabama in the second quintile (in the top half of the bottom 40%) with a 75% rate.

ED Data Express

(Mississippi also performs poorly, but Tennessee is in the top quintile.)

So, are the higher taxes and COL in Wisconsin worth the 15%-or-so differential with regard to Alabama? The answer to that probably comes down to personal preferences and values. Wisconsin has had a reputation as an "education state" where significant numbers of high school students take the ACTs and, to a lesser extent, SATs and go to college; whereas Alabama students tend to focus more on the ACTs, and attend college in lower numbers. There's nothing wrong with either approach, as college is not the only viable option for students.
From my experiences and observations, it's not limited to the larger cities or places with lot's of transplants.

The last paragraph I cannot disagree with.
For me, it's not so much whether the extra cost of living is worth it, but if one can afford it. Wisconsin is frustrating because the wages are the same, if not lower than some places that are more affordable.
Also, my mention of the south has nothing to do with where I live now, which is not in the south.
It's just a backlash to those on here who worry that Wisconsin's shift to the political right is going to turn it into the south, an accusation that makes me laugh out loud.
First, the south isn't exactly some backwards third-world country that those people think it is. There are some places that have serious problems, but are no worse than what you'll find in inner cities of the north.
The cultural differences are also too deeply embedded. The things that Wisconsinites cherish in terms of government services, for example, southerners often couldn't care less about. It doesn't make their quality of life worse, just different.
It tends to aggravate people down there when outsiders move in and start nitpicking and complaining about everything, when they (the natives) are doing just fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timberline742 View Post
In Madison? This example was in Madison, wages are a bit higher in Madison than the rest of the state because COL is higher.

I'm glad you enjoyed the South, I've lived there and worked there, and outside a few places... Athens GA, Nashville, TN and a couple of others, I wouldn't want to live there again. Of course, the nicer places like that are more expensive too. That's the way it works.




Ok, well, we should assume these "normal, working people" live in Madison and have one or two 4 year degrees and 13 years experience (the dance teacher likely has two, either a MFA or a dance and an ed degree). I sincerely doubt any "normal, working" person in Madison with that pedigree would consider 52k an amazing salary.
I was born and raised in the south, several states in fact, and lived there for several years as a young adult. The word "enjoyed" would not exactly describe my experience. Wasn't all bad, but not my thing. I do not live there.
In many ways, I prefer Wisconsin. Not because it's better, but it's more my taste.
My statements about the south were in reaction to the berating it takes as the whipping post for everything good ol' Wisconsin doesn't want to become. Accusations based on hyped-up stereotypes and limited-if-any personal experience by the accusers. They obsess over hard data without considering cultural intangibles like preferences, outlook, values, etc., and tend to assume their way is superior and everyone should be in agreement on that. Southerners can be just as guilty when assessing the north.

I used to bash the south as much as anybody, but after living elsewhere and getting older, the issues I thought I had just weren't as real or as important as I thought they were.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GraniteStater View Post
Only if you compare the wealthiest metro areas in very few select locations within those states. All of the smaller cities and rural areas have inevitably more problems and issues overall.
I'm not trying to be contrary all the time, but I wouldn't say all the smaller cities and rural areas have any more problems than their urban counterparts. Many of those smaller places do an incredible job bringing in factories, for example. Some pay well, some don't, but they are jobs that wouldn't be there otherwise.
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Old 04-05-2014, 08:01 AM
 
Location: Wisconsin
7,215 posts, read 7,927,305 times
Reputation: 7740
Quote:
Originally Posted by milt14 View Post
so you are ignoring what Northbound74 says about he and his wife's experiences and the deciding factors of them not living in wisconsin anymore. Or he and his wife are too stupid to realize that they were wrong in what/how they lived here? Or that he is just lying about it?

don't tell me, you are a leftist and live in madison.....
OK milt, you sound like someone that left the forum a little while ago, with a similar anti-Madison bent. What's your real agenda here?
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Old 04-05-2014, 08:57 AM
 
432 posts, read 447,025 times
Reputation: 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Empidonax View Post
If you dig into the Alabama scene a bit more deeply, you'll see that wages overall aren't that great, most of the people don't have flashy stuff, and most of the public schools are mediocre at best.
sounds like wisconsin.

Quote:
Racial segregation is bad in parts of Wisconsin
thank you for being honest.

Quote:
but in Alabama things are not much better: rich and middle class whites disproportionately send their kids to private "academies."
you don't think this is just an alabama thing do you? famlies that care about their children have been doing that nationwide for a long time. that's what's great about vouchers and new in WI, open enrollment--parents that are actually involved with their children and want them to have a better education than the local public school can have their children attend other schools.

Thank you Republicans and Governor Walker. Giving parent's a choice and the ability to flee public schools that are full of urban gangbangers and their violence, also where there are better, more qualified teachers.

always interesting to see how a certain political group of people will go to great extremes to change most people's reality to fit their own worldview.

" less wealthy whites send their kids to middling public schools, and blacks have access to terrible schools. This situation happens in both urban and rural environments."

looks like a lot of these schools are not only nice, but, well, the teacher to pupil ratio looks very high.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMLs...has_verified=1


Milwaukee mom upset about a huge fight in a high school hallway caught on tape. - YouTube


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd9stN3dXo0

this teacher was lucky no aclu lawsuit:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1Mbs6g9XTA

warning, swearing:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hckJIutArfo


Quote:
Milwaukee students protest metal detectors as MPS cites threat of violence

Students of Riverside University High School staged a protest Thursday morning in front of the school, 1615 E. Locust St., to object to the mandatory use of metal detectors at the building.


Milwaukee students protest metal detectors as MPS cites threat of violence




plenty of reasons out there for people to move their children out of urban public schools.
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Old 04-05-2014, 09:01 AM
 
432 posts, read 447,025 times
Reputation: 102
[quote=GraniteStater;34226173]I think you need a new hobby.[/.quote]
So that means, yes, you are from the left side of the political spectrum and reside in madison.

Quote:
I have lived in many parts of the country, including Madison.
and I bet most of them are of the far left spectrum. like I mentioned earlier, "boulder, madison, austin...repeat".

what I'm showing here is how isolated leftists are from the lives of normal people. and that's because they are isolated in their small, affluent enclaves of like minded thinkers. most will dare to venture to a place like texas, but it'll be austin. now they can take pride in how multi cultural they are......
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