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Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,938 posts, read 36,748,650 times
Reputation: 40634
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccjarider
How is kowtowing to public unions solving any problems you speak of?
Once again - simple lefty talking points.
Dude - You kill me sometimes. Of course State gov't impacts local property taxes. It is true the bill may come from a local municipality, but make no mistake about it - Federal and state mandates (especially in education) drive significant cost.
Kowtowing? Being willing to negotiate in good faith is kowtowing?
Funny. I've been a party to many negotiations, and there was no kowtowing.
You seem to, like most conservatives, forget that these are PEOPLE.
And yes, education is a significant cost, if you look at it that way. Most people I know view it as in investment. Most people in the business world view advertising as an investment, education is no different. There is money going out to pay for it, but the returns, when it is done well, outweigh the "costs". There is a net positive return. In fact, infrastructure, which education is a part of, one of the best investments a society can make.
But hey, you saved enough to order a take out pizza thanks to your man not "kowtowing" (aka not being willing to negotiate with people in good faith).
Kowtowing? Being willing to negotiate in good faith is kowtowing?
Funny. I've been a party to many negotiations, and there was no kowtowing.
You seem to, like most conservatives, forget that these are PEOPLE.
And yes, education is a significant cost, if you look at it that way. Most people I know view it as in investment. Most people in the business world view advertising as an investment, education is no different. There is money going out to pay for it, but the returns, when it is done well, outweigh the "costs". There is a net positive return. In fact, infrastructure, which education is a part of, one of the best investments a society can make.
But hey, you saved enough to order a take out pizza thanks to your man not "kowtowing" (aka not being willing to negotiate with people in good faith).
Man- you are like the game whack-a-mole. You bounce from topic to topic.
You forget that the taxpayers are PEOPLE too. The taxpayer is the more important factor in the equation as they are the employer of the public worker and are "the Boss."
As the employer, the have free rein to make decisions as to how they want the business to be run. In the case of WI, they have, through their elected officials, determined they are not satisfied and have instructed their managers to improve the business.
Conversely no public employee is wearing an anchor. They are free to move on to better their situation if they choose. This is way the real world works.
Your education comments are off point and contradictory to your previous statement that property taxes are strictly local.
No argument that education is important but it is not the point.
You and I can carry on but in the end, I think we will have to agree to disagree.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,938 posts, read 36,748,650 times
Reputation: 40634
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccjarider
Your education comments are off point and contradictory to your previous statement that property taxes are strictly local.
There was nothing contradictory about it. Nothing. It seems you don't want to get it. Education just isn't K-12, and while property taxes are local, guidelines and mandates usually aren't just local. And no, none of it was off point. Education is an investment despite your not wanting to see it. We should be investing more in teachers and school facilities as the economic and societal benefit returns are great.
And yeah, public sectors are free to leave the public sector. I did because public sector employees are incredibly underpaid. I went right into a 1/3rd better paying position (most people I know who leave do) with just as good benefits... great, the State lost a highly educated public servant because it was cheap... and people want it to be cheaper? Well fine, don't complain about the quality of the public workforce then. You get what you pay for.
And like most conservatives, you'd rather tear down your neighbors financially, than build up your community and everyone in it. You think like a selfish person, that it is about you and your family, and not the community as a whole and society as a whole.
Keep watching Wisconsin's budget struggle, the brain drain, and all it's neighbors out competing it in jobs and education in order to save enough to get an extra bag of cheese curds once or twice a year. Congrats in screwing the state.
There was nothing contradictory about it. Nothing. It seems you don't want to get it. Education just isn't K-12, and while property taxes are local, guidelines and mandates usually aren't just local. And no, none of it was off point. Education is an investment despite your not wanting to see it. We should be investing more in teachers and school facilities as the economic and societal benefit returns are great.
And yeah, public sectors are free to leave the public sector. I did because public sector employees are incredibly underpaid. I went right into a 1/3rd better paying position (most people I know who leave do) with just as good benefits... great, the State lost a highly educated public servant because it was cheap... and people want it to be cheaper? Well fine, don't complain about the quality of the public workforce then. You get what you pay for.
And like most conservatives, you'd rather tear down your neighbors financially, than build up your community and everyone in it. You think like a selfish person, that it is about you and your family, and not the community as a whole and society as a whole.
Keep watching Wisconsin's budget struggle, the brain drain, and all it's neighbors out competing it in jobs and education in order to save enough to get an extra bag of cheese curds once or twice a year. Congrats in screwing the state.
Minnesota is certainly benefiting from all of this, and while I'm glad for the Gopher State, I'd like to see Wisconsin stop the brain drain. With Walker still there, this seems unlikely to happen.
There was nothing contradictory about it. Nothing. It seems you don't want to get it. Education just isn't K-12, and while property taxes are local, guidelines and mandates usually aren't just local. And no, none of it was off point. Education is an investment despite your not wanting to see it. We should be investing more in teachers and school facilities as the economic and societal benefit returns are great.
And yeah, public sectors are free to leave the public sector. I did because public sector employees are incredibly underpaid. I went right into a 1/3rd better paying position (most people I know who leave do) with just as good benefits... great, the State lost a highly educated public servant because it was cheap... and people want it to be cheaper? Well fine, don't complain about the quality of the public workforce then. You get what you pay for.
And like most conservatives, you'd rather tear down your neighbors financially, than build up your community and everyone in it. You think like a selfish person, that it is about you and your family, and not the community as a whole and society as a whole.
Keep watching Wisconsin's budget struggle, the brain drain, and all it's neighbors out competing it in jobs and education in order to save enough to get an extra bag of cheese curds once or twice a year. Congrats in screwing the state.
NOPE -once again you show your inability to stay on point.
You argued that property taxes are local as a rebuttal to comments that under Walkers tenure, property taxes have not risen.
I pointed out that they are very much influenced by factors beyond local control- (Education being a major factor)
You then go on a pro public education rant - ignoring the real topic which is: Are property taxes local or not?
Please get off soapbox for at least one post and stick to topic. I know its hard.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,938 posts, read 36,748,650 times
Reputation: 40634
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccjarider
NOPE -once again you show your inability to stay on point.
You argued that property taxes are local as a rebuttal to comments that under Walkers tenure, property taxes have not risen.
I pointed out that they are very much influenced by factors beyond local control- (Education being a major factor)
You then go on a pro public education rant - ignoring the real topic which is: Are property taxes local or not?
Please get off soapbox for at least one post and stick to topic. I know its hard.
I know conservatives aren't known for being able to think outside the box... and they try to refute everything they don't understand (evolution, climate change, etc.), but the above is simple. Property taxes are set by local governments. They may be influenced by outside factors, but they are still the responsibility of local governments.
It is fairly simple and straightforward. I was staying on topic, what was lacking was your ability to comprehend simple words and concepts. That's your issue, not mine.
Man- you are like the game whack-a-mole. You bounce from topic to topic.
You forget that the taxpayers are PEOPLE too. The taxpayer is the more important factor in the equation as they are the employer of the public worker and are "the Boss."
As the employer, the have free rein to make decisions as to how they want the business to be run. In the case of WI, they have, through their elected officials, determined they are not satisfied and have instructed their managers to improve the business.
Conversely no public employee is wearing an anchor. They are free to move on to better their situation if they choose. This is way the real world works.
Interesting implication that people (or, more specifically, voters) are most valuable when they are taxpayers. So, do those who pay more taxes have greater value and deserve a greater say in public affairs?
I hear the "taxpayers are the employers of public workers" mantra a lot, but am not convinced that's technically how it is. Taxpayers may be more like shareholders, and they (as well as other eligible people who don't pay taxes) elect individuals who are in fact The Boss, sometimes even making executive decisions contrary to the will of the shareholders (cue current polls showing majority disapproval of education cuts as proposed). But the "taxpayers are The Boss" mantra is admittedly attractive-- sort of like the growing attitude among students that they are "customers" first and foremost, and teachers are more like baristas than educators. Everything seems easy and tidy when reduced to a business model.
The business model, though, is often applied inconsistently. Sure, public workers have free rein to enter other industries and sectors, but when they ask to be compensated at competitive levels--or, in the case of collective bargaining, to have the mechanisms in place to advocate properly for such--they are told to shut up and be grateful that the public employs them at all. In proper businesses, and often in businesses facing lower profits or even fiscal problems, employees are compensated at competitive levels, and those doing particularly good work are duly rewarded. I haven't seen that kind of thinking emerge from the state's halls of power lately.
I know conservatives aren't known for being able to think outside the box... and they try to refute everything they don't understand (evolution, climate change, etc.), but the above is simple. Property taxes are set by local governments. They may be influenced by outside factors, but they are still the responsibility of local governments.
It is fairly simple and straightforward. I was staying on topic, what was lacking was your ability to comprehend simple words and concepts. That's your issue, not mine.
Holy crap - why did you even make this post? Gotta have last word??
You argue out both sides of your mouth for sake of argument.
I would like to ask you a very targeted question that should require just a yes or no reply - Do Walkers policies have any effect on property taxes in WI?
A proper answer does not require soapbox pontificating as to whether said policies are good or bad. We both know how we think on that. No need to repeat.
btw: I understand the "diversity embracing" liberal loves to lump all those who challenge his elitist mindset into one big pot - but for the record, I do not think I have ever stated any opinions on here about:
1) evolution (it's real);
2) climate change - (Could be real - probably not caused by man but based on data, more likely the sun); 3) gay marriage (could care less; if it makes some people happy -fine);
4) legalized pot (could care less);
or any other cause du jour that trips your trigger on a particular day.
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