leaving wisconsin survey (Milwaukee, Superior, Oregon: living, price, law)

[KateDaum]

Dolly,
If you are concerned about drinking and teens get out of IL. Looked at my husbands stats for relocating. Illinois had 155 teen fatalities in 2006 compared to 88 in WI. Tazewell Co, Illinois had 15 teens killed in car crashes in 1 year.
Any child killed is a tragedy.



Dolly Said:
#2. Drinking and getting drunk seemed to be an acceptable part of every day in Wisconsin. Just about every week there was some sort of tragic accident in the paper due to drinking and getting drunk. No way would I continue to raise a child in this environment.

[jjacobeclark]

Originally Posted by yeah!

Wisconsin is extremely boring, ugly, depressing state with bad ever changing weather and boring, closed up people. Don't get me wrong most Wisconsinites are not bad natured, obnoxious or jerks but they are not very intellectual thus overall boring and not fun to be around. The whole state is obsessed with stupid football game and it seems like a pinnacle of their whole existence..and shopping, but if you ask for direction or something they will help no doubt.

You come across as a hater. You admit WI people are friendly but since they like football and YOU can't relate to most people that makes THEM stupid?

Originally Posted by yeah!

Milwaukee area is all that plus crime. Generally speaking Milwaukee is a one big ghetto. Many say it's great and all but it's just because they live there and are biased or don't know any better. WI has a negative stigma for a reason. I mean common Brady street is fun and cool? You gotta be kidding me! It's a short narrow street with bunch of old, ugly, rustic businesses and non stop traffic. Sitting outside cafe, starring at traffic and inhaling car exhaust. You must have been blind or never get out to call that cool or fun. I feel sorry for these people

Milwaukee is not one big ghetto, perhaps you are merely a racist and equate ethnic diversity with ghetto-ness. The whole East Side is very cool as is Shorewood, Riverwest, Downtown, Brewer's Hill, Third Ward, etc. If you don't think crowded, congested Brady St. is cool, then you probably wouldn't like Wicker Park in Chicago or SoHo in Manhattan or the Mission District in SF either. I feel sorry for you thinking you're so damned cool. Where exactly have you been in this world that allows to make these sweeping judgments? I hope its not based on the Travel Channel.

Originally Posted by yeah!

They just seems to put anything that comes to mind in the place without care about any style or architecture. The whole landscape is generally a one-two story high and going like this: Mc'D, Starbucks, Wal-Mart, Mall, Gas Station, Kohl's, Factory, Old Navy, Pick-n-Save, Bank, Mc'D, Starbucks, etc. Architecture is truly ugly and horrible in WI. Shopping seem to be primary form of entertainment there although there are no good stores like IKEA, Nordstrom and many others like in other states, only recently they put up very first Costco, Whole Foods and Trader's Joe. Pick-n-Save has a good monopoly on grocery business, driving others out

Again the areas you are describing don't sound like anywhere I've been in WI, it sounds more like sprawling suburban Denver, CO where I currently live. WI is home to Frank Loyd Wright one of the most revered architects in history. His designs can be found throughout the state as well as Chicagoland. Milwaukee has many very beautiful old buildings, as does Appleton, Wausau, Madison, LaCrosse, etc. You criticize people for shopping for fun, then go on to complain they don't have the stores you like. Denver doesn't have Trader Joe's or IKEA, does that mean its lame too? If you want Nordstrom what's preventing you from going to Chicago or Mall of America? Pick'N'Save doesn't drive other stores out, most WI people are frugal and don't want to shop at Whole Paycheck if they can get more for their money elsewhere.

Originally Posted by yeah!

Main highlight of summer are numerous summer fests with loud, annoying, horrible rookie soft rock bands and bunch of bored, badly dressed fatties and obnoxious teens, who are also fat, walking around drinking watery beer and waiting for fireworks to begin. How fun!!! Not much in terms of refinement, culture divercity or sophistication. WI prides itself on beer and cheese, guess what? Both are tasteless. Roads are very bad due to weather and construction never stops. The whole state is one single speed trap, although most people are very bad, slow drivers, while real criminals running lose shooting people. In short it's a typical Midwest - very miserable, ugly, boring and depressing place to live. No matter how you sugarcoat it, it still sucks. I wouldn't recommend it to anybody, especially if you are young, outgoing and have some money.

Summerfest is awesome as is the various other ethnic festivals held throughout the year. Most cities or states have nothing as large or as fun as Summerfest. As for rookie bands, I just saw The Roots, Less Than Jake, and Goldfinger all on free stages on 4th of July. As for lacking culture, in WI drinking, eating, and socializing is our culture. You need to get over yourself. No place in this world is going to have what you think you want. If you can't make friends in WI where everyone is nice and non-judgmental, then I'm afraid you're hopeless. How would you handle the Seattle Freeze? You're making excuses as to why you don't have any friends by blaming everybody else. Just because you're miserable doesn't mean you have to spread your hatred to others. I highly doubt any city would be up to your standards. Chicago, NYC, Boston, and Philadelphia all have beautiful architecture and highly civilized, cultured populaces but they are all very congested, dirty, and have very high crime as do most major cities.

Originally Posted by yeah!

P.S. The only positive thing about WI is not very bad parking situation.

Then what's keeping you from leaving???

[KateDaum]

My husband helps people relocate. In the past 8-9 months he has helped over 20 families relocate to WI and find jobs. Employees were glad to have them and didn't care where they came from, just care that they are qualified.


#3. We came to Wisconsin because we thought the job situation would be better. Instead we found ourselves competing with lots more people for the same handful of jobs in addition to having the handicap of not being "from there". We moved back to southern Illinois where the unemployment rate is 10 percent and yet my husband found a job there within 2 months, I found a job within three months and they are both GOOD jobs! I wish we had never moved to Wisconsin in the first place. Home is where you are loved and we knew that the prejudice and ignorance we found in Wisconsin was so ingrained in people there that we would never feel loved there. I tell all our friends to never travel in Wisconsin with Illinois license plates because, although they like the money we spend there, they don't like us. NO thanks, we will take our money elsewhere. Wisconsin needs to grow up![/quote]

[PhilJohnson]

Originally Posted by dreamingmark

I think what is actually chasing you out.. is your HUGE attitude problem, negative complex of emotions, and general dislike of the place. If you made an effort, you'd see the good things about living here, but you're so caught up in your own definition of how much the state sucks that you won't even try to find things you like!

Have a nice day

All I can say is wow. Yeah that's it, must be my negativity complex. I mean I have only lived here my entire life and it isn't like I haven't given anything a chance. It isn't like I have tried to find things to go and do and seek out people that like the same things I do. I bought land here a couple of years ago with intentions of staying here forever.

Originally Posted by dreamingmark

Erm excuse me. Which planet are you on? I go to Lawrence University in Appleton and it's a great place to be. Our events are usually free or low-price and open to the public I can go to any kind of music or concert that I want, any night of the week, for FREE. I can watch French films.. any night of the week.. for FREE! And yes, I can have intelligent conversations with people. About BOOKS! A week ago or so, we had a band from Inner Mongolia come in and play their morrin khur and do throat singing.. I have friends from Ghana, Sri Lanka, India, Iceland, China, Indonesia, Italy, Germany, France.... who are actually quite nice people. So don't give me the "Wisconsin has no culture" B.S.

Excuse me? But where did I say I wanted to live in a large city. I know any large city will have more variety/culture than a small town. However I don't want to live in one or near one for that matter. I have lived in a couple of larger towns (Madison and Milwaukee) and indeed there was more "culture" but the crime/sprawl trade off wasn't worth it.

Originally Posted by dreamingmark

Umm.. Phil.. yes. The drinking culture or permissiveness of drinking.. that's a problem. But again, whether or not you want to participate in it is your choice. Stay in, read some Camus, what do I care?

It isn't like I go out and seek that life. It comes to me. I think only people who have never drank understand this fully. But try to imagine everywhere you work at or events you attend everyone there thinks they are going to be the "first" one to tell you how great drinking is and why you should do it. You tell them no, but then they are like,"But man you have no idea what you are missing." And then they don't shut up about it for the entire time you are around these people. Depending on the duration of how long I am around these people this can go on for months/years. It has been like this at almost every job I have held and quite a few events. Yeah I must have imagined that all of my childhood friends succumbed to Wisconsin's drinking culture.

I usually don't delve much into my personal life on a web forum but perhaps this will give you an inkling what gives me my bad "attitude", my family has a history of alcoholism, my Uncle died from it along with my Grandpa. And as an added bonus every year that I attended high school someone died in some sort of retarded alcohol related death/crash. And the best thing about this, the next weekend I watched everyone drink themselves into an oblivion. So yeah I am a little burnt out from that.

Originally Posted by dreamingmark

Um again, excuse me, I have to ask what planet you're from. If you ever bothered being nice to these people, instead of being fixated on calling them "rednecks" or folks who are "quaint", they'd be nice back. I have never met a more caring, warm-hearted, genuinely nice group of people than Wisconsinites, ESPECIALLY rural Wisconsinites. Yes, what you mention is a problem. I have "local" status as well because even though I am not one, my dad was. But if a new person makes an effort to be NICE and to act like a local.. and to be courteous.. it's not a problem. But when you try to impose fancy attitudes from Chicago or the Twin Cities on us, that's what we resent. Get that bug out of your bum Phil.. it's obviously jammed pretty far up there! LOL. Nobody cares where anybody's from or what you do as long as you're a good person.. one of my best friends, who now owns a business in Appleton, is an illegal immigrant. He's a great guy. Everyone loves him, we could care less that he came over in a truck from Mexico.

Perhaps you forgot that said I was a local from a small town (2600). I have been here most of my life. I have no big city attitudes I try to impose on anybody. I am accepted as a local, but I have seen other people who move here from out of town who are nothing but friendly but who never get past the level of "face" friends. Also as my interest have wandered off of what people like to do here I have found my social prospects dwindling. People do care where you are from here, maybe not where your from but here it makes a difference.

Originally Posted by dreamingmark

And er, crime's everywhere. It's the result of the 21st century, modernization, globalization. Again, whether you involve yourself in getting exposed to that is a choice.

Yes crime is everywhere, the amount of it is variable depending on location. And yeah I must of imagined that my stuff was stolen and that gas I had in my tank really wasn't there in the first place. Maybe if I hadn't been involved in trying to stay away from every shady character I see I wouldn't have gotten my stuff stolen. It is a good thing your here to tell me why I am so wrong about my own personal observations.

Originally Posted by PhilJohnson

Also in my area there are plenty of very aggressive people who think it is their duty to chase you down and start berating you because you forgot to use a turn signal (this has happened to me, my family, and friends).

Originally Posted by dreamingmark

Well der.. not using a TURN SIGNAL is impolite, rude and shows lack of common sense. I think you are impolite and have serious attitude problems.. that's why you don't like Wisconsin because Wisconsin couldn't handle you.

Yup, forgetting to use a turn signal now means that anyone can chase you down when you get out of your car and start swearing and yelling at you when every they feel like. And when you pass someone going 20 miles an hour it gives them free reign to chase you down and tell you how they are going to beat your ***** (that guy was drunk by the way). These are just few of (way too damn) many incidents. There are idiots everywhere to be sure, but the frequency of said idiots varies on the region. And once again thanks for your personal assesment of my attitude problems.

Originally Posted by PhilJohnson

They also think your business is theirs and if there is anything I know about rural Wisconsinites they love hearsay. One day you'll hear a rumor about yourself being a drug dealer, the next your a deranged nut.

Originally Posted by dreamingmark

Rural Wisconsin thrives on rumors.. gossip.. and talk. It's the price to pay for living in a small town. There are two responses to this. Response #1 is to refute the rumors yourself by acting nice, saying nice things to your neighbors, and making funny jokes about the rumors. The other is just to be so outrageous that you become known affectionately as "THAT" dude... again your statement begs the question.. were you ACTING like a deranged nut? I think perhaps you were..

I have tried response number one numerous times, doesn't help. Once people think they have you nailed down your done, forever. For the record I never have or will do any drugs. And I avoid bad characters like the plauge. Also I love your self-rightous zeal you have going here. What would I do without people on web forums telling me how wrong I have been.

Originally Posted by PhilJohnson

"I think rural Wisconsin especially has experienced a bit of "brain" drain and all the smart people left leaving the lowest on the rung to repopulate the state with alcoholic wannabe gansta/cowboy retards whose definition of culture is a 12 pack of beer and football.

Originally Posted by dreamingmark

Brain drain is a problem because people like you move out and the negative attitudes influence politics, so that no one wants to come in and invest in the state for anything besides tourism, and.... Claiming that Wisconsin has no culture is a bunch of B.S. and hooey. Again, come down to Appleton! We have a South American string instrument band playing next week, two French films showing, a concert, and any number of recitals for oboe, viola, etc. Also, Sai Ram in Appleton is one of the best Indian restaurants.. EVER.. and I've been to a lot of Indian restaurants in my life.

Once again you provide your thundering insight on my commentary. And let me repeat, I don't want to live in a large town. You like Appleton, great for you, pat yourself on the back that you have found somewhere you can fit in. I haven't yet, and have spent the last couple years looking around this state to find this somewhere. However even in Wisconsin's largest city I remember reading a news paper article a few years back about how the best and brightest were leaving for greener pastures. I guess the only logical conclusion is that the best and brightest must have bad attitudes therefore I must be included in this group .

Karfar, I would be curious to know how, based on my post, that you could infer that I think everyone who drinks is indeed a "drunk, lazy, loser, retarded, stupid, uncultural, or any of the other negative connotations". I have nothing against people enjoying a good beer/wine/whatever else. It is when they enjoy way too many of the afore mentioned beverages that I have an issue with it. Also I don't care how good your wits are, being in an area with higher crime automatically puts you at a higher risk for various undesirable things. I have travelled to other states, they are nothing like this state and that is when I first opened my eyes and realized just how bad certain aspects of living here are. I was also surprsed to find people whose first topic wasn't talking about their favorite drinks but instead talked about more engaging topics of conversation. I have found places that were worse than Wisconsin as well.

As an ending note, one shoe doesn't fit all. There are many people who love it here, that is great. I am glad there are people who enjoy this state. But time and time again when these topics of conversation come up, usually people with a beef are told that they are the biggest idiots ever and how dare they say anything bad. This only serves to reinforce the opinion that Wisconsin is a state made up of a bunch of people who can't take a little criticism who don't take well to out of state individuals/families. Instead of attacking those perhaps a more constructive method would be to find out what it is people don't like and try collectively as a state to improve.I realize Wisconsin can't be all things to all people, so there will always be people who are disappointed with life here. So please fellow Wisconsinites, don't take every criticism as a personal attack against You.

[karfar]

Originally Posted by PhilJohnson

My opinion of those "great" fest things is that they pretty much are full of drunken idiots who think nothing of driving home after a day's worth of 'festing er drinking.

Well, right here you call people who drink at festivals "drunken idiots".

Originally Posted by PhilJohnson

Milwaukee is pretty much the armpit of the state, high crime, no jobs, and plenty of drunks.

Again, another positive statement from you about Milwaukee. The fun never stops!

Originally Posted by PhilJohnson

The rural areas (for the most part, there are exceptions of coarse) are full of a bunch of almost snobby rednecks (oxymoron?) who make it their duty to make sure "outsiders" know they can never be fully accepted into the community.

Again, another raving review, this time about the rural areas here. Aren't you the one who said you preferred a smaller town? All in all Phil, I'd repeat my assertation that you have a chip on your shoulder. I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that all these negative things have actually happened to you. Things happen to people Phil, it's not a perfect world, yet you seem to amplify it. You spew forth a litiny of negatives about the state you grew up in, & then try to backpedal in your other post. Why should we try to find out why you feel this way & what can be done to make you feel better, you're not a child. And who likes to help someone who starts out by attacking? Sorry, why haven't you moved a long time ago then? Some people like to be the victim.

[PhilJohnson]

Originally Posted by karfar

Well, right here you call people who drink at festivals "drunken idiots".

Can I ask, are you a drunken idiot? I didn't say everyone who attends these things are drunk. Most usually, but not everyone. I think your problem is that you viewed my post as a personal attack against your lifestyle. I guess if you fall into the previous mentioned category then yeah you have a legitimate reason to be offended.

Originally Posted by karfar

Again, another positive statement from you about Milwaukee. The fun never stops!

I have family and friends that live in/near Milwaukee, they agree with my opinion. But they don't have the resources to move. There are good areas and neat things to see, but the trade off as I said earlier wasn't worth it. If you think it is good for you.

Originally Posted by karfar

Another raving review, this time about the rural areas here. Aren't you the one who said you preferred a smaller town?

If you had taken the time to read my post you would have read the following:

Originally Posted by PhilJohnson;

The rural areas (for the most part, there are exceptions of coarse) are full of a bunch of almost snobby rednecks (oxymoron?) who make it their duty to make sure "outsiders" know they can never be fully accepted into the community.

Notice where I said that there are exceptions. And may I ask, have you ever lived in a small town (really small under 4000 people)? I have lived in towns ranging small to huge in different areas of the state. Have you ever lived anywhere else but Wisconsin? Believe it or not there are places that are different than Wisconsin, culture-wise and otherwise.

Originally Posted by karfar

You spew forth a litiny of negatives about the state you grew up in, & then try to backpedal in your other post. Why should we try to find out why you feel this way & what can be done to make you feel better, you're not a child. And who likes to help someone who starts out by attacking? Sorry, why haven't you moved a long time ago then? Some people like to be the victim.

Backpedal? I still stand by my statements. I found out why you feel that I am wrong in my opinion as stated in your first reply.

Originally Posted by karfar

Drinking: Yep, we drink here, or at least some of us do. I drink but I'm not a drunk. I like going out or staying in w/friends & having drinks, watch movies, whatever. This in no way makes us drunks, lazy, losers, retarded, stupid, uncultural, or any of the other negative connotations you may connect w/people who drink.

So should I say that you have a chip on your shoulder against people who don't drink. Right away you cram words into my mouth (or is that characters into my post) about how I feel about people who drink. I initially posted on why I am leaving Wisconsin, that is what the original thread it about. It wasn't about why this state is so great and wonderful.

Secondly I state why I feel the way I do and suddenly you label me as someone with a "****ty attitude" to borrow your words. I don't want help or pity, and if I did I wouldn't ask for it on a web forum. So your point of me attacking and asking for help is invalid. Attacking, yeah I can see that. But asking for help, nope.

Also as far as moving, if you paid any sort of attention I stated earlier that I have either visited or lived in different parts of the state. That is how I came to my conclusion about this state. I have sold my property, waiting to get laid off of my job, and will be starting anew in a different state.

Also a victim is someone who sits around and does nothing to change their circumstances. I don't think of myself as one. I can either adjust (which I won't) or go somewhere else were the social norms are more compatible with my beliefs and lifestyle.

Originally Posted by karfar

All in all Phil, I'd repeat my assertation that you have a chip on your shoulder. I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that all these negative things have actually happened to you. Things happen to people Phil, it's not a perfect world, yet you seem to amplify it.

Chip on my shoulder? I guess you could could get that from my post. Really, I don't go around all day with a thundercloud over my head saying woe is me. I am a pretty happy go lucky guy for the most part. As far as not believing why I feel the way I do, well tough luck. If it makes you feel better to think that I am making this stuff up then go right on believing it.

Your right about this not being a perfect world, but it is a big one and there are many other places to live besides here. I gave Wisconsin an honest try, and for me it just ain't gonna work. I am sorry if I offended people who are snobby rednecks, drunks, druggies, or idiots.

[dreamingmark]

Right here in WI..

when I was 5 and wanted to play on an arcade and didn't have any quarters, people I completely didn't know gave me quarters and said Have a Nice Time

Right here in Appleton, this year, when I was having a bad day and went to the Thai restaurant, the owner would give me free food and listen to me cry

Total strangers right here in Appleton have helped my car out of the snow, held open doors, said Please and Thank You, and have said Good Afternoon when I pass them on the street. I can engage them in friendly conversation without feeling afraid or threatened.

People I didn't know from Adam have given me tea and cookies when I was cold and ice cream when I was hot

That's the people of Wisconsin I know

I am sorry that you seem to think otherwise. And you say things that are misleading.. you say small towns are insular, have no culture, etc. Fair enough- there are some stupid towns around here.. but then you say you don't like living in larger towns or cities!? In Wisconsin, culture and diversity, often, though not always, congregate in the larger towns

And even crime in Appleton is pretty tame.. I don't know what you are up to but I have never been the victim of a violent crime in either Appleton or Madison, both of which are consistently rated as livable, beautiful, walkable cities. If you've been all around like you say you have, you know that the crime is 100000 times worse in Chicago or NY than here..

I'm sorry that your life has been hard and that this state hasn't worked out for you, and I'm sorry that you have such a low opinion of my family, my friends, and the Great Wisconsin Ethic that helps us survive in what can be a cold, harsh, unforgiving place. Have you even looked about you at the vast natural beauty we possess, the wide open spaces and fields and forests and lakes? Did you ever take the time to consider that the world is actually a pretty great place?
I wish you the best, but wherever you move, being a pessimist will not help you.
Consider this tale
A man shouted into a well, "Shut up you idiot!" The well echoed back, "Shut up you idiot!" The man said Good Afternoon, and the well echoed back, Good Afternoon!
That's how life is Phil.. we get what we give
Sorry if I sound preachy or naive.. I can imagine you shooting me down from here
Here's a big apology and a hug from a loyal Wisconsinite to you
xoxoxox
Mark

[susancruzs]

I hope you find what you are looking for, Phil and best of luck to you. I moved here a year ago from NE Illinois basically to live in a safer place as there was a shooting next door to me in Illinois, couldn't deal with Waukegan anymore. Two Rivers has been great, people are friendly, I love all the parks/beaches, things to do, has worked out very well for me.

[PhilJohnson]

Originally Posted by dreamingmark

Right here in WI..

when I was 5 and wanted to play on an arcade and didn't have any quarters, people I completely didn't know gave me quarters and said Have a Nice Time

Right here in Appleton, this year, when I was having a bad day and went to the Thai restaurant, the owner would give me free food and listen to me cry

Total strangers right here in Appleton have helped my car out of the snow, held open doors, said Please and Thank You, and have said Good Afternoon when I pass them on the street. I can engage them in friendly conversation without feeling afraid or threatened.

People I didn't know from Adam have given me tea and cookies when I was cold and ice cream when I was hot

That's the people of Wisconsin I know

I am sorry that you seem to think otherwise. And you say things that are misleading.. you say small towns are insular, have no culture, etc. Fair enough- there are some stupid towns around here.. but then you say you don't like living in larger towns or cities!? In Wisconsin, culture and diversity, often, though not always, congregate in the larger towns

And even crime in Appleton is pretty tame.. I don't know what you are up to but I have never been the victim of a violent crime in either Appleton or Madison, both of which are consistently rated as livable, beautiful, walkable cities. If you've been all around like you say you have, you know that the crime is 100000 times worse in Chicago or NY than here..

I'm sorry that your life has been hard and that this state hasn't worked out for you, and I'm sorry that you have such a low opinion of my family, my friends, and the Great Wisconsin Ethic that helps us survive in what can be a cold, harsh, unforgiving place. Have you even looked about you at the vast natural beauty we possess, the wide open spaces and fields and forests and lakes? Did you ever take the time to consider that the world is actually a pretty great place?
I wish you the best, but wherever you move, being a pessimist will not help you.
Consider this tale
A man shouted into a well, "Shut up you idiot!" The well echoed back, "Shut up you idiot!" The man said Good Afternoon, and the well echoed back, Good Afternoon!
That's how life is Phil.. we get what we give
Sorry if I sound preachy or naive.. I can imagine you shooting me down from here
Here's a big apology and a hug from a loyal Wisconsinite to you
xoxoxox
Mark

I am not trying to shoot anyone down here or say that personally that I dislike your family/friends. Just stating my opinion on why I am leaving this state. As I have said before I have given it an honest shot here. I have been to other states, small and big towns, and it seems I click better elsewhere. I help out people when I can, given people rides, towed cars out of ditches, hold open doors for little old ladies. I think if you met me in person your opinion of me having a bad attitude would clear up in a hurry.

Crime wasn't a problem here until the jobs left and the meth came in. It isn't like I am afraid to walk anywhere or anything like that. Mostly just a lot of stealing going on and drug dealing. Unfortunately it is a story I hear of small towns elsewhere in this state and other mid-western states as well

I have heard a few other people talk of my hometown about the aggressiveness of the people who live here. I am not saying this is indicative of all Wisconsin. I know its' not because I have lived in other cities in this state (Madison, Eau Claire, Augusta, Milwaukee). Maybe it is because everyone is on edge the last few years because of the job losses. At any rate I am not alone with frequent experiences dealing with idiots in this town. It has been the deciding factor for some of my other family members of whether to stay here or not.

I am not looking for a small town with all the diversity of a large town along with the culture. Every small town has a bend one way, and I have found some that bend my way. Those small towns are not in this state though.

As a final note apology accepted. I guess when I originally posted I didn't think it would quite elicite the response I got. It was sharply written, and looking at it now, probably too much so. Bad day that day, so perhaps that is why I came off how I did. That said, next time don't take critism of a generalized view of this state so personal and recognize a rant for what it is, letting off some steam.

Peace

[JoshB]

Phil, Can I ask where your moving?

Peace to you as well,
Josh