Hooray....Smoking Ban Compromise Reached! (university, live, clubs)

[QwertyFarmer]

Originally Posted by Drover

I've been pubcrawling for nearly 15 years now. I've been in bars from Kansas to Connecticut. I have never been to a bar that excludes non-smokers. I've never even heard of such a thing.

Actually, every bar that allows smoking excludes non-smokers by making an environment specifically catered to those who do smoke, not those of us who don't.

Avid pool player? Get your own table.

Wow, so If I enjoy spending time with local neighbors, or meeting new people I should forget about it because it is more important for smokers to enjoy those elements and keep my pool cue's at home.

Again, DROVER/Elitist, under your suggestion I should never expect the ability to enjoy socializing, something unfamiliar to you maybe? I prefer to play with other people, especially those who are better than I am so as to improve my game and increase the enjoyment of the challenge. Should kids who are bullied but like sports build their own baseball fields, goal posts, and basketball courts?

[Drover]

If you want to make personal comments about me or speculate about any of my personal qualities, then PM me and we can discuss it offline. On here, stick to the topic.

"Actually, every bar that allows smoking excludes non-smokers by making an environment specifically catered to those who do smoke, not those of us who don't. "

I shouldn't have to point out the obvious flaws of this claim, but apparently it's necessary. Non-smokers can still go to bars where smoking is permitted. I do it all the time. "Not catering to" and "excluding" are not synonymous. Just like smokers can still patronize non-smoking bars or other establishments that cater to non-smokers.

Bars are not the only place where you spend time with local neighbors or meet new people. You can play pool with other people in your own house -- such as maybe the neighbors you want to hang out with. You have choices. Exercise them.

[gold*dust1]

Fabulous, I'm so glad this thread has been deemed *worthy* of remaining open

I am rather enjoying reading Drover's and a few others, putting the smoke nazi's arguments in their place

[Capt. Dan]

There is nothing stopping anyone from opening a NON SMOKING bar is there?

[quijote]

Originally Posted by Drover

Just as smokers don't have a right to smoke in an establishment that has chosen to ban smoking, you don't have a right to "foul up the air around you" in a way the proprietor of the establishment does not allow. Ambiance is the proprietor's prerogative, and that should be obvious to anyone who isn't trying to manufacture silly hypothetical scenarios. But if you can find a bar owner who says it's hunky-dory to bring in dead fish, well then, bring in dead fish. Go ahead.

And you think bars just have machines that pour smoke into the room or something? The customers and frequently the staff are the ones doing the so-called "poisoning" so they have evidently accepted that "right."

Of course, this whole exchange is based on our seemingly irreconcilable perceptions of the legitimacy of smoking: I see it as toxic and deadly before all other functions, and you see it primarily as "ambience" and enjoyment. Perhaps you also consider cig smoke exceptional, compared to other chemical hazards, because it's more of a tradition and has legitimated itself merely through use and advertising.

If proprietors allow smoking as a feature of "ambience," they are--in my view--essentially endorsing the poisoning of their staff and customers. And yes, I understand that the endorsement is reciprocal: the smokers want their habit approved and legitimized, so they seek out places letting them do so. For many, this is the quintessence of the "free market." But for others, this "free market" was manipulated into toxic existence by decades of deceptive advertising and anti-competitive forces. Smoking never deserved to get as far as it has, and now it's widely seen as some sort of symbol of "individual rights."

Of course, smoking is not the only commercially marketed bad habit pushed into U.S. culture, but it is singular in how it affects people beyond the smoker proper. It is supremely toxic, pure and simple, and all the enjoyment derived from it will not change that. Sure, anti-smoke folks such as myself may be demonized as "nazis" or whatever, but our opinion and resolve pale in comparison to the forces that brought and established smoking into U.S. culture in the first place.

Considering the health, social, and financial costs all combined, I'm amazed that smoking remains legal and that many other, less harmful activities are either illegal or severely restricted. But that only underscores the powerful grip of the tobacco industry, an industry not known for championing the underdog, individual rights, and other fine ideals that they seem to be currently benefiting from.

[quijote]

Originally Posted by Drover

I've been pubcrawling for nearly 15 years now. I've been in bars from Kansas to Connecticut. I have never been to a bar that excludes non-smokers. I've never even heard of such a thing.

Avid pool player? Get your own table.

To quote you: "Let them eat cake"

[quijote]

Originally Posted by Capt. Dan

There is nothing stopping anyone from opening a NON SMOKING bar is there?

If you think smoking and not smoking are both equally legitimate activities, that is.

But for those who see smoking primarily as poison, and only secondarily as "enjoyment," then specially designated non-smoking bars shouldn't have to exist.

[quijote]

Originally Posted by gold*dust1

Fabulous, I'm so glad this thread has been deemed *worthy* of remaining open

I am rather enjoying reading Drover's and a few others, putting the smoke nazi's arguments in their place

Ah, yes.... The powerful tobacco industry, anti-competitive advertising/marketing practices, and attendant deeply rooted cultural norms are all great democratic forces in support of individual rights. Sure.

Those tobacco pushers sure are a bunch of fair-minded Marlboro men (and women) who only want a free marketplace of ideas (as long as there's a cigarette vending machine around). And I'm sure the smokers who clamor for "proprietor's rights" and "individual liberties" are completely libertarian about all other issues....

[Capt. Dan]

Originally Posted by quijote

If you think smoking and not smoking are both equally legitimate activities, that is.

But for those who see smoking primarily as poison, and only secondarily as "enjoyment," then specially designated non-smoking bars shouldn't have to exist.

Oh! I see. The only persons rights that matter are yours! Got it.

[quijote]

Originally Posted by Capt. Dan

Oh! I see. The only persons rights that matter are yours! Got it.

If you consider it a right to poison yourself and everyone around you, then yes!