Guns

[Lehi]

Originally Posted by johnnnybandfreak

Thank you Lehi
johnnybandfreak

It's not that I'm unsympathetic to the problem of feral cats. I don't appreciate cats coming up and pissing on my front door, my vehicle tires and windshield either. I just think there are more humane alternatives than shooting them! One being a trap/spay/neuter and release program. Other communities have them. I stumbled on this article as I was looking for information. Some people might enjoy the read, some won't: [url=http://www.newswithviews.com/Walker/jill6.htm[/URL]

[Primal1]

This is ridiculous.
Hunters go out and kill for the joy of killing.
Not because they need to do so for survival.
But so far I have not seen anybody proposing to shoot hunters.
Leave the cats alone.
The birds are always going to be around.
Cats have always been victimised (excuse the spelling).
Killed for one reason or another.
People just do not like cats.
Do not use the birds as an excuse for killing the cats.
Killing the cats for that reason or any reason makes you such a **********...

This is a typical knee jerk reaction from someone who thinks they love animals. Nowhere did I say I advocated killing/shooting cats. I merely was explaining in a more complete way the "cat killing proposal". Yes hunters kill for the "joy" if thats the way you want to put it. However it's a whole multitude of emotions involved in hunting and thats something a rabid nonhunter will never understand. They go to a grocery store where the animal is already killed, cleaned and packaged for them by somebody else. They think they are morally superior for doing it this way. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Birds are not "always going to be around". Large numbers of species are on the way to extinction for a number reasons that include being killed by cats. Why are birds any less of an animal worth saving than a cat? It songbirds that are the most adversly affect too. They are the pretty ones with such wonderful calls. If all you want around are Crows, Starlings and Grackles the I feel sorry for you. As Lehi pointed out what they did not like about cats for several reasons but spaying and neutering does not stop them from killing the birds and other animals for no reason. Their numbers need to be reduced dramatically. Plain and simple. Look at cats as an introduced exotic animal that throws the equilibrium of the local ecosystem out of balance. It happens all the time. Do some reading and try to understand the need for reducing stray/feral cat numbers.

I am not a cat hater. I have one. It's a cat thats happy as any cat can be and it stays inside. It goes outside but it's on a leash and loves it. This is not cruel. Cats can be trained to be like this easily. People only think they can't be. I love my cat. I don't want it to be run over by a car. I don't want it to get feline leukemia from another "outdoor" cat. I don't want it to get any other number of diseases or infections either that it's exposed to when outdoors.

So please refrain from calling me a "such a **********" when all I was doing was explain something you may not agree with. It's time to get educated about issues rather than just react so emotionally. That does not solve anything except to incite and enflame others.

[elfyum]

Interesting. I instantly "sided" with johnnybandfreak (& lehi) but you did have an intelligent response Primal1. I especially like two of your points.

1) that domestic cats are "human made" & we should be responsible, as you are, for these creatures.

2) that people condemn hunting but then eat "neatly packaged" meat i.e. someone else did the "dirty work" so it's ok.

In fact, I REALLY appreciate that comment because I am vegan!

**If all the self proclaimed animal lovers out there would put their money (& mouths!) where their HEART is, there would be no more needless suffering & we could work on those **** hunters!!! **

Note that I said NEEDLESS suffering - yes I realize animals eat animals. And no, we are not part of the food chain - haven't been since we were hunters & gatherers. So all the carnivors can save it!

Now as for what to do about the feral cats - there are organizations such as Alley Cats who do the trap neuter release thing. That gets the population under control.

As for them being pests, hell my neighbors can be pests! Coworkers can be pests! Drivers can be pests! Do we go around shooting THEM???!!! We coexist with those we do not like, and those that disturb us...
DEAL WITH IT! If the fanatic muslims would only do this...!!! But all intelligent civilized beings CAN! (& should, & DO!)

Hey-why do they censor d-a-m-n but not hell or ass?!

[Primal1]

Note that I said NEEDLESS suffering - yes I realize animals eat animals. And no, we are not part of the food chain - haven't been since we were hunters & gatherers. So all the carnivors can save it!

We ARE a part of the food chain, always have been, always will be. You have made a conscious choice to be in a different part of the food chain but you are still a part of the chain whether you like it or not. I do admire you if you're able to sustain that choice. I've tried it but could not maintain it. I am an 'Omnivore' I eat meat and vegetables. There are actually very few true carnivores who eat only meat.

There are some who have made the argument that it's the introduction of agriculture that actually began the demise of mankind and the enviroment. Think about it. When you picture pristine Mother Nature you think of a lush wooded mountain scene with a waterfall/river/lake or some other such vision. You probably do not think of a 1000 acre wheat/corn field or a 2000 animal cowyard for a mega dairy farm. What else can live there? True nature is a patchwork quilt of many different species of animals and plants living in a balance, not the "monoculture" of modern farms or a lopsided ecosystem with way too many predators (cats are predators). They make the point it's the farmers who have drastically changed the earths enviroment to feed all of us. Mankinds population growth can be tied directly to farmings advances to feed MORE people not the other way around. It's natures way to overproduce so some will survive to carry on the species. Farming takes advantage of that fact. It's the "hunter" who really wants to keep Mother Nature as unchanged as possible in order to maintain the enviroment to the benefit of ALL the plants and animals and themselves.

Now I know it's not going to change things or change your mind as you said:

As for them being pests, hell my neighbors can be pests! Coworkers can be pests! Drivers can be pests! Do we go around shooting THEM???!!! We coexist with those we do not like, and those that disturb us...
DEAL WITH IT! If the fanatic muslims would only do this...!!! But all intelligent civilized beings CAN! (& should, & DO!)

Feral/stray cats have become much more than mere pests. They are working to destroy whole populations of birds and other small animals. When those populations are gone (as in extinct) they will not be coming back anytime soon. It's time to get educated on this problem if you say you really care about cats. Do something other than condemn "hunters". It was an excellent point about putting your money where your mouth/typing fingers are and HELP DO SOMETHING about it. How much money have you given to buy, rehabilitate and maintain the huge tracts of land that are needed for all the animals you say you love to live in? Hunters are a group who through license fees and special taxes that are paying to do this. Are you? Hunters only hunt the excess Mother Nature always produces. If the animal numbers won't allow it, hunters cannot hunt them. It's all highly regulated. Hunters do not hunt songbirds either. Yes some people will be POACHERS and kill whatever/whenever they want. Please do not call this type of person a hunter as they are not. They are criminals. Being a hunter is not a criminal activity. Even though you don't agree with it, that's the truth.

[johnnnybandfreak]

Humans mainly the white man has change nature to accomodate his life.
Species of animals are becoming extinct everyday.
The problem starts with humans and not with animals.
We are the one who have changed the eco systems to fit our needs.
I let people be.
I aggree to disaggree.
But advocating killing for any reasons is wrong.
And when I talk about hunters, it was in reference to killing for fun.
Like cats, they like doing it.
We are not a hunting and gathering culture anymore.
Hunting is not a basic necessity.
Just an extra.
A way for a man to feel primal.
And if tomorrow, there was no more convenient stores to buy that piece of meat. Then hunting becomes a necessity for all of us meat eater.
Or we will all become Vegan. And that would probably be better.

johnnybandfreak
p.s- The ******* was written this way by me and not the watcher of the forum.

[Lehi]

Originally Posted by Primal1

They go to a grocery store where the animal is already killed, cleaned and packaged for them by somebody else. They think they are morally superior for doing it this way.

Well that's an offensive generalization. I'm a non-hunter (notice I said non-hunter not anti-hunter) and I don't think of myself as "morally superior". I just can't kill things. The blood and guts, ugh! Even handling a raw piece of meat from the grocery store is disgusting. Raw poultry? Gross! But it's all good when it's cooked. (Sorry elfyum) Hunters I do take issue with though are trophy hunters. They go out to kill the biggest, baddest bull/buck/whatever just to take home the biggest rack. I'm sure the lesser males are doing the happy dance but how can that be good for the future of the herd? I also find some hunters' attitudes funny. They go out with their high-powered rifles and scopes, set up a blind next to the animal's favorite watering hole and then kill the critter as it's taking a drink. Then they go home and brag to their buddies "Ug! Me great hunter." LOL! Sorry, I don't mean to offend anybody. I just find it funny. I have no issue with the concept of hunting. I know herds need to be managed due to our encroachment on their habitats.

Originally Posted by Primal1

spaying and neutering does not stop them from killing the birds and other animals for no reason.

I do not believe that cats kill birds and other animals for "no reason". Cats eat what they kill. People may think they don't eat it because they come across the poor little dead birdie or mousie and throw it out. But if they had left it there, I bet the cat would have come back later and eaten it. Just as Big Cats kill their prey and then come back to feed on it several times. Cats prefer to eat in small portions.

Originally Posted by Primal1

Their numbers need to be reduced dramatically. Plain and simple.

Trap/spay/neuter and release programs do reduce numbers; just not fast enough for the satisfaction of people with your mindset. And shooting them reduces the numbers too fast for people with my mindset. So we'll just have to agree to disagree agreeably on this issue.

Originally Posted by Primal1

I am not a cat hater. I have one. It's a cat thats happy as any cat can be and it stays inside. It goes outside but it's on a leash and loves it. This is not cruel. Cats can be trained to be like this easily.

You are absolutely correct. My cats are all very happy and they do not go outside. They don't even show the desire to go outside (except for the one who I have taken out on a leash). I have scratching posts and cat trees for them to climb. They have the life of Riley! My cats do not bolt out the door when I open it. Even the one cat who (literally) followed me home when I was out walking my dog doesn't show any desire to go outside. He knows he's got a good thing going.

[Lehi]

Originally Posted by elfyum

As for them being pests, hell my neighbors can be pests! Coworkers can be pests! Drivers can be pests! Do we go around shooting THEM???!!!

No, but I can dream can't I?

[johnnnybandfreak]

Just see all the wonderful messages that you get when you ask about guns
law.

johnnybandfreak

[Lehi]

Originally Posted by johnnnybandfreak

Just see all the wonderful messages that you get when you ask about guns
law.

johnnybandfreak

LOL! Things did get kinda sidetracked didn't they? You probably would have been better off to just Google "Wisconsin gun laws".

[url=http://wsll.state.wi.us/topic/firearms.html[/URL]

[url=http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/StateLaws.aspx?ST=WI[/URL]

[johnnnybandfreak]

Originally Posted by Lehi

LOL! Things did get kinda sidetracked didn't they? You probably would have been better off to just Google "Wisconsin gun laws".

[url=http://wsll.state.wi.us/topic/firearms.html[/URL]

[url=http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/StateLaws.aspx?ST=WI[/URL]

Thanks Lehi.
This is the info that I needed.
johnnybandfreak