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sorry to hear that ivory. since you were let go without cause, you weren't fired for misconduct or a breach of contract. instead this wasn't anything in your control and since your contract wasn't renewed, they decided to terminate your employment. i'm taking this as a contract position, like your construction contractors that are employed only for a set amount of time.
let me ask a few questions:
- is the school going through a change of leadership/management?
- is budget tight?
- have other people been recently laid off?
- is the school going to undergo restructuring?
if so, honestly to me, this would qualify as a lay off or at least you can spin it that way. regarding the question, just simply state that your contract expired and they were moving in a different direction. but in your interviews, state the positives in that you had the opportunity to learn a lot and teach some awesome students.
hang in there, ivory. it sucks being let go (i was let go too) but you can get yourself back on your feet very soon!
The school changed leadership this year. As far as I know they're keeping the same leadership for next year.
They did let two teachers go because they are going to online versions of their classes and just don't need them. I was replaced.
I admit I was very unhappy there. I was teaching chemistry to over 30 students at a time in a 750 square foot room that doubled as my lab. I was not comfortable with that. It did not feel safe. My blood pressure was through the roof on lab days. Almost every lab there was some mishap or practical joke pulled because I couldn't, adequately, supervise due to inability to move about the room and just too many bodies in the room.
Most likely, they figured out I'm looking, and I am and just decided to replace me before I found something else and quit. I suppose I could put down that I was laid off and just explain that I had reached the end of my contract and they decided not to renew it. Near as I can figure, chemistry teachers only last 2-3 years at this school. I was there two years and the teacher before me was there 3 years. It's a difficult environment to teach chemistry in. Also they seem to let teachers go for no real reason. Last year they let a math teacher go who had been there three years. They just told her they were going in a different direction and hired someone to replace her.
In an at will employment situation, they are free to do what they want but you'd think they'd owe you an explanation when they are replacing you with someone else. I don't believe this is because I wasn't happy there. That's just what they told me. There is more to it than that. If it were just me being unhappy, you'd think they'd try to figure out how to fix that. No one is giving reasons. Something smells fishy. I'm not sure but I could guess that my decision to pull my kids from this school after seeing it from the inside has something to do with it. I just couldn't see signing my kids up to take classes like chemistry crammed into a tiny little room with 30+ other students. The enviornment is too restrictive. That leaves the teacher either trying to manage labs that are unsafe or not doing labs because they are unsafe.
Ivory~ if it were me I think I'd go back into engineering.
First I think that if you apply for another teaching position with the "my contract wasn't renewed" reason for termination they aren't just going to think the job was over and you weren't needed anymore. I would think that another school would be able to read between the lines very well and the next question they would have would be whether your position was eliminated, or were you replaced.
Second, I think that if your frustration had been just with the school administration that it might still be worthwhile to look into another school or district, but your frustration is also with the students and parents. Maybe if you found a position in a well funded private school, or a magnet school that could pick and choose and accepted only serious, college bound students you'd have the ideal teaching environment you seem to want. In the city I lived in those kinds of positions are highly sought after and chances of an inexperienced teacher landing a job like that are pretty much nil.
Lastly, you did seem genuinely unhappy with the job you had. Unless you are very good at masking your feelings I would not think it a stretch to suppose that people at the school picked up on that. It may or may not have had a thing to do with your job searching. OTOH if you've been vocal about your frustrations, made a lot of waves, gotten a reputation for being difficult... the termination shouldn't come as any surprise. Either way being let go as not rehirable is usually difficult to overcome.
At least if you apply for an engineering job you can be honest and say that you discovered that a career in education just wasn't what you expected and that you'd be happier back in your old career.
I was notified yesterday that the charter school I was working for will not be renewing my contract. Their reasoning was that I wasn't happy in the position. Translation: They figured out I was looking for a job and beat me to the punch. HOWEVER, almost every online teaching application I've filled out asks the question "Have you ever been asked not to return from a position?" and I'm not sure what to put on my applications for why I left.
I wasn't pink slipped or laid off. I was let go without cause. Basically, they just managed to find my replacement before I found a job but now I have to explain being let go on my resume. I'm afraid this is going to do irrepairable damage to my resume. Are there any teachers out there who have had to deal with this?
Should I just give up on teaching? I do have an engineering degree but I haven't worked in engineering in three years.
Thanks in advance
Ivory
I would answer the question honestly, that you were let go without cause, but would immediately follow it up with you were not looking to renew your contract anyways (although not in those words); which would file your answer under the 'it was a mutual agreement' category. Answer it honestly and in a way that makes it sound like you left that school to work for their school.
Contract jobs vary, and in some cases can be short term-which is understood. Your contract is up, you move on to something else. In other positions, such as this one, the term "Have you ever been asked not to return from a position?" is only going to be interrupted one way by other schools because they know what this question means in this case. They also know what it could not mean, as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by STT Resident
Your current employer can't malign you if asked for a reference by a prospective new employer...
A good employer will only confirm that you did indeed work there and from what date to date. This is primarily to prevent a lawsuit, however, how much information a former employer can legally give out will vary by state.
When I lived in Minnesota, a perspective employer can only ask -and a former employer can only release- whether or not you were an employee, the dates that you worked, and nothing else. I believe that in California this is extended to include whether the former employer would higher the employee back or not, or they can only disclose whether they would rehire the former employee -I can't remember which. Here in Maine, both the potential and former employer(s) can have a full-on conversation about you disclosing all sorts of information as long as both parties are acting in good faith and not maliciously.
So, it depends on the state. And if Ivorytickler lives in the state of Michigan -which, if I remember correctly, she mentioned in a previous post in another forum- the former employer can disclose ANY information about a former employee as long as it is true. So if she answered 'No' to the question, it could be found out to have been a lie, yet the former school could (should) also mention that is was not because of misconduct.
I would also add that you do your best to leave, and remain in, good relations with this former employer. Despite why/how you left, they could turn out to be a valuable reference-you never know. So don't give them the bird on the way out.
Do what most people do LIE.Lets not bs ourselves the vast majority of us lie when it suits our needs and why should the employment process be different.In the slight chance they catch you in the lie,so what, you don't get the job.Its better than saying you where fired, for masterbating in the office bathroom or whatever other reason you give and still don't get the job.Reasons for getting fired don't matter to an employer.The guy fired because a supervisor unfairly disliked him is on the same level as the guy fired for masterbating at work.Fired is fired to an employer.And you lie in the interview anyway.Is it possible that 90+ percent of americans biggest weaknesses are being too goal oriented or being a perfectionist? Yah RIGHT.
They were clear there was no misconduct. Just not a good fit (translation, they realized I was unhappy and looking and beat me to the punch).
I am not rehireable. They've decided I don't fit with the school. I've struggled with too large of classes in too small of a room. Coming out of industry, I am very safety conscious and doing labs with 30+ kids in a retrofitted classroom that doesn't pass for a middle school lab that is half the size a lab should be was stressful for me. They made it clear that class sizes will be larger next year. Apparently, the new teacher doesn't have a problem doing labs in what I consider to be an unsafe environment.
Are you saying that they said specifically that you are ineligible for rehire?
Or are you saying that you *think* you would not be rehired there?
These are two very different things. If your employer said that you are ineligible for rehire-- then I would not say you are being discharged. You were fired and they were perhaps not 100% honest with you about their reasons.
If you are eligible to be rehired then you were essentially just laid off.
But if they informed you that your status is ineligible for rehire (something that many employers will answer to in a reference check with yes or no) then you have been asked to leave and would not be able to return under any circumstance. This would mean you would have to answer accordingly on that application (or should since they may find out in a reference check that you were not able to return).
Ivory~ if it were me I think I'd go back into engineering.
First I think that if you apply for another teaching position with the "my contract wasn't renewed" reason for termination they aren't just going to think the job was over and you weren't needed anymore. I would think that another school would be able to read between the lines very well and the next question they would have would be whether your position was eliminated, or were you replaced.
Second, I think that if your frustration had been just with the school administration that it might still be worthwhile to look into another school or district, but your frustration is also with the students and parents. Maybe if you found a position in a well funded private school, or a magnet school that could pick and choose and accepted only serious, college bound students you'd have the ideal teaching environment you seem to want. In the city I lived in those kinds of positions are highly sought after and chances of an inexperienced teacher landing a job like that are pretty much nil.
Lastly, you did seem genuinely unhappy with the job you had. Unless you are very good at masking your feelings I would not think it a stretch to suppose that people at the school picked up on that. It may or may not have had a thing to do with your job searching. OTOH if you've been vocal about your frustrations, made a lot of waves, gotten a reputation for being difficult... the termination shouldn't come as any surprise. Either way being let go as not rehirable is usually difficult to overcome.
At least if you apply for an engineering job you can be honest and say that you discovered that a career in education just wasn't what you expected and that you'd be happier back in your old career.
Frustration with students and parents actually has to do with expectations of the administration. I feel that way too much hand holding was done at my former school. If my daughters don't do their homework, they get an F. Period. If students at my old school don't do their homework, they get to turn it in late. Sometimes very late. If my daughters fail an exam, they're told to study harder next time. If one of my students failed an exam, I was expected to reteach the material and let them retake the exam. Unfortunately, I found the more I did for the students, the less they did for themselves and, IMO, that's not good and not preparing them for the real world. Not surprisingly, scores really didn't improve with second or even third takes on exams. ...and frustrations are simply things to vent about and get on with your life. They are not the whole picture. I had a chance to leave the school in February and didn't take it because there were students I felt I couldn't abandon. For every student and parent that was a thorn in my side, there was one standing with me and working with me. I will miss them.
However, I agree that being let go as non rehirable is tough to overcome. While I am 99.9% certain that had I not made the decision to pull my children from the school last year, I'd still have a job, I was still let go as non rehireable. After seeing the school from the inside, I decided it was not the best place for my kids. That did not sit well with the owners. I'm certain that played into this decision. Seriously, I never had a negative comment about my teaching. In fact, I was complimented for doing more than the teachers before me on a regular basis.
I was vocal about my feelings that the "lab" was not a safe place to do labs. I was vocal about 36 students in a chemisty class being a mistake (I was told that everyone has to put up with large class sizes (this is one reason I moved my kids back to the district we live in. They're one of 25 students in a class for most of their classes. 30 is a HUGE class at their school.)) but I don't think these were the reasons I was not renewed. I think my being unhappy enough with the situation to move my kids back to our local district was. I think that was taken as a vote of no confidence on my part when what it was was the realization that our district simply had more to offer than the charter school. As a parent, you weigh your odds and go with the best one. Neither of my choices were great but there were advantages to pulling my kids back to the district such as smaller class sizes and more options for higher level classes. Unfortunately, it looks bad to have a teacher who had her kids in the school she teaches in pull them out. I believe this was at the heart of my not being renewed.
Yeah, my teaching career is over. It's a shame because the reasons I went into teaching still stand. I just couldn't do it the way I think it should be done where I was and now, I'm unlikely to ever get the chance to try again. At least, not in this economy. I landed the wrong job and that, usually, ends a career. This happened to dh years ago. He left a decent job for one he thought was better only to be fired 6 weeks later because "His department had been in the red for two years"?????. He never did find another job in his field. He ended up switching to IT. Six weeks isn't enough time to figure out if an employee is going to work out and you can't blame an employee who was only there six weeks for the last two years but it didn't matter. He was fired. That's all anyone saw and that's all they'll see with me.
What a waste. I could have had a PhD in engineering on half the effort here. Right now, I'm only seeing openings for PhD chemical engineers and I only have a masters. Cross your fingers that the shortage of engineers is real. Restarting an engineering career is also difficult. Companies like to either hire people with particular skills sets they need that is in high demand or hire new grads. People like me with skills sets that were deemed redundant or outdated (they don't let people go who have current skills sets that are in high demand) can find it tough to get back in the game. Still, I don't have to explain not having a contract renewed in engineering. It's unfortunate that schools will assume that my contract was the same type they give their teachers. It wasn't. It was a year to year at will contract. The equivalent of working for a temporary agency and no one owes me an explanation for why it was not renewed.
Are you saying that they said specifically that you are ineligible for rehire?
Or are you saying that you *think* you would not be rehired there?
These are two very different things. If your employer said that you are ineligible for rehire-- then I would not say you are being discharged. You were fired and they were perhaps not 100% honest with you about their reasons.
If you are eligible to be rehired then you were essentially just laid off.
But if they informed you that your status is ineligible for rehire (something that many employers will answer to in a reference check with yes or no) then you have been asked to leave and would not be able to return under any circumstance. This would mean you would have to answer accordingly on that application (or should since they may find out in a reference check that you were not able to return).
I am saying they would not rehire me. They have decided that we are not a good match. They think they have found someone who is a better match for the school than me so they did not renew my contract. It is a dismissal without cause. I am charged with no misbehavior. I am not even charged with not doing my job. As far as I know, they are not unhappy with the quality of my work. They're just not happy to have a teacher who isn't happy with them and this one was so unhappy with the school she pulled her kids out after 4 years and sent them back to their local district. THAT does not sit well with the owners.
Seriously, I think the only reason they hired me was because my kids went to the school and I happened to have my resume on their desk when an opening came up. I had already requested my children's transcripts be sent back to our local district because I couldn't manage transportation as a teacher unless I just happened to get something near the school. They had an opening a week before school started so my kids stayed that year. Before the year was up, it became apparent that none of my daughter's friends were staying for high school and she did not want to be the only one staying (her personality is such that she just cannot not have what everyone else has and deal with it well) and she told us she wanted to go back to the local district. By this time, I had seen enough to realize that there was no real advantage to her staying in the charter for high school (there was for elementary school due to curriculum differences between the schools) so it was six of one and a half dozen of the other but teens are much easier to deal with if they aren't being forced to go to a school they do not want to be in so we pulled her back to district.
The intent was to leave dd#2 in the charter school through 8th grade. I had already come to the realization that, for high school, they simply had nothing to offer her other than dual enrollment and that was a long way off. She came to us at the last minute and asked to go to the local middle school because she wanted a chance to make friends before high school. While I saw no, academic, reason to move her at that point, I coudln't argue with her logic. It turned out to be the right choice for her as she was ready for more acadmic challenge (she's the kind of kid who's happy wherever you put her so it's hard to tell when she's not being challenged enough). The district recognized that and pushed her up half a grade. She is now on track to have 1-2 years of college credits when she graduates from high school at 16. That would not have happened had she stayed in the charter. She will have more scholarship opportunities as well.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 06-17-2010 at 06:58 AM..
Do what most people do LIE.Lets not bs ourselves the vast majority of us lie when it suits our needs and why should the employment process be different.In the slight chance they catch you in the lie,so what, you don't get the job.Its better than saying you where fired, for masterbating in the office bathroom or whatever other reason you give and still don't get the job.Reasons for getting fired don't matter to an employer.The guy fired because a supervisor unfairly disliked him is on the same level as the guy fired for masterbating at work.Fired is fired to an employer.And you lie in the interview anyway.Is it possible that 90+ percent of americans biggest weaknesses are being too goal oriented or being a perfectionist? Yah RIGHT.
This is the problem. I didn't do anything wrong but I'm looked at the same way as someone who did.
FTR, the principal has agreed to call it a lay off when called for references. What it was was not a good fit on multiple levels. Had they not nonrenewed me, I would have left as soon as I found something. They did give me the option of resigning but this economy is too bad to risk not being able to draw unemployment so I took the non renewal/lay off/whatever you want to call it. Being able to draw unemployment for the summer means I go into the fall with a cushion. I can sub for a while and not feel it financially. It means I have until about January to find something before I'm dipping into savings.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 06-17-2010 at 07:20 AM..
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This is the problem. I didn't do anything wrong but I'm looked at the same way as someone who did.
