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Old 11-18-2007, 03:11 AM
LM1
 
Location: NEFL/Chi, IL
833 posts, read 105,113 times
Reputation: 344

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I agree with those who say you should address it with him, place him on a probationary status and go from there.

A very different yet somewhat similar situation- My brother has a felony on his record. Happened when he was younger (22), victimles, non-dishonesty related "technical" offense, etc, etc. Super hard worker, totally honest guy, sharp as a tack.
Obviously, he has to deal with this on a job application.
Everyone advises him to just be honest, explain the circumstances- that people will understand and so forth but after a year of doing that, he learned that his only option was to L--I--E, pure and simple.

This puts him in a crappy situation as an otherwise honest person, but for all the talk and bluster coming from people who say that folks should be given chances, etc, the CYA culture we live in just doesn't allow for it.

So, he lands a killer IT job with a firm in CA. He lies on the app, scores the job and sure enough, 2 years later, he gets called into the HR department. Not only is the HR manager there, but so is his department manager and the CEO of the company. They found out.
He was unspeakably lucky in that his employers stood behind him, allowed him to explain the situation and, given two years of superb job performance, kept him on... Still, 99 times out of 100, given that same situation at any given employer in any given place, they would've handed him his walking papers.

I don't know what line your company is in (I didn't bother reading all 12 pages) but if this kid is a stellar performer, I'd say you are much off keeping him. The lengths he went to in order to obtain employment with your company, while not honest, does show a substantial degree of creativity and eagerness. That plus his performance does entitle him to a shot, I believe.

I recall a line from the movie "Wall Street" where Gordon Gecko talks about the sort of guys he wants working for him....
“Give me guys that are poor, smart and hungry...” I agree with Gordon.

HR zombies are notoriously bad about applying grossly simplistic criteria and inconsiderate, standardized metrics to assess candidates and employees. This methodology will never get you the "best" employees, but it will never fail to get you employees that are consistently "slightly above average"- no more, no less.

Hell, if a kid ever went to those lengths to get hired with me, I'd probably give him a damn raise. Is it "unethical" what he did? Maybe, but in the high stakes world of capitalistic business, the only thing that counts is the red meat- whether the manner in which you bagged it was "sporting" or not is academic BS for people who value their high horses over the bottom line.

High performing red meat eaters are the ones you want on your team, how they got there be damned.

Last edited by LM1; 11-18-2007 at 03:40 AM..
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Old 12-04-2007, 04:08 PM
 
35 posts, read 146,874 times
Reputation: 38
[SIZE=3]
Quote:
Originally Posted by LM1 View Post
Hell, if a kid ever went to those lengths to get hired with me, I'd probably give him a damn raise. Is it "unethical" what he did? Maybe, but in the high stakes world of capitalistic business, the only thing that counts is the red meat- whether the manner in which you bagged it was "sporting" or not is academic BS for people who value their high horses over the bottom line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LM1 View Post

High performing red meat eaters are the ones you want on your team, how they got there be damned.
I must agree. In today's businesses there are no saints, and very little is black and white. The fact of the matter is that the corporate policy of most, if not all, major companies is NOT TO GIVE any details regarding an employee's performance or their exit status (ie, whether they left on their own or were fired) out of fear of litigation; all you get is verification of employment dates, title, and if you request it in writing, salary. So much for getting the inside scoop on your potential hire!

In spite of the sophisticated albeit highly impersonal hiring techniques that many employers utilize to evaluate job applicants, it is still a crap shoot no matter what contrived assurances one builds into the algorrhythm. Raising the bar unnecessarily high so that only superheroes and other larger-than-life characters are deemed worthy breeds and environment that forces people to misrepresent themselves in order to have a fighting chance. We need to trim the fat off the artificial science that HR professionals have turned hiring into and get back to basics; at the end of the day, what we need is someone who can get the job done, and there are more ways than one to skin a cat! If you look at the statistics, the number of people who lie in their job applications is staggering. If the circumstances didn't call for it, why would people do it? Surely no one believes people wake up eager to fabricate opportunities to embarrass themselves and expose themselves to potential public humiliation and job loss because they're looking for a higher thrill? I am not excusing gratuitous dishonesty, but merely acknowledging that sometimes, desperate situations require desperate actions. I certainly won't be the one to judge another until I've walked a mile in his shoes... I, for one, had to "dumb down" my resume on many occasions when effecting a career change, after "the truth" got me caught in a cycle of over- or underqualification for just about every job that interested me. After a very frustrating extended period of not getting any chances to get my foot in the door, I went to "Plan B" and lo and behold, things started to happen! Am I any different from the gentleman who is the subject of this thread? I think not... I am convinced that if all of us were put under a microscope, even the self-righteous ones who feel confident casting stones, none of us would stand...

In any case, my extensive experience as a Sr. Executive working with many Fortune 100 companies has shown me that, by and large, the most sought-after companies ridiculously overshoot the job qualifications required to perform a certain function in what I often perceive to be an attitude of "we do because we can," buying into the fallacy that more must be better. Companies seem to flatter themselves hiring overqualified individuals to perform functions that a monkey could do, then wonder what went wrong when these individuals are openly miserable from the moment the ink dries on their employment contract. All too often people are hired because they look "sexy" on paper: they have the "right" letters behind their names, went to the "right" schools, worked in the "right" places, etc., then turn out to be total duds. Perhaps if our hiring practices we're a little more realistic, people wouldn't feel cornered into lying to get a chance TO WORK AND EARN A LIVING, which for most people is not a luxury. We've forgotten that we're dealing with people in their full humanity, and that sometimes a bit of well allocated compassion goes a long, long way. I am willing to take a chance on people and to forgive certain lapses in judgment on a case by case basis. No single answer fits all situations, just like no single act defines an individual.

In this gentleman's case, he didn't kill anybody and seems to have no other blemishes on his record or extended performance, so I would confront him about it and give him a chance. I don't believe in witch hunts or crucifixions, rather in evaluating each situation and letting the preponderance of the evidence prevail. Now if a second incident occurred, all bets would be off... In the final analysis and given his proven performance track record, I'd rather have him on my team than a dud hands down (ie, the "honest" applicants who drag their feet on the job, call in "sick" and otherwise collect a paycheck they haven't earned)! AND, I'll take someone lying to get a job ANY DAY before someone lying to get on welfare/defraud insurance companies/ collect government benefits/ engage in frivolous lawsuits, etc., which is FAR more damaging to society as a whole. Sometimes we have to put these things in perspective...
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Old 12-04-2007, 08:18 PM
 
Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
16,249 posts, read 11,817,416 times
Reputation: 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dingler View Post
At my office we have an employee who is just terrific. He has a great personality and a unique way with people. He also has unique technical skills and a real great work style. He puts in long hours without complaint and is always available for extra work. ------------But we also found out he lied big time on his employment application.

When he was hired a year ago, he made up a fake company, paycheck stub, and got a few friends to act as boss. It fooled the new guy in HR who checked has references.

A few weeks ago we had someone recheck every-ones backgrounds as part of a ongoing security check for a government contract. Our superstar employees lies were exposed. What should we do about it?
Dishonesty is pretty black and white to me. If his lies did not involve covering up fraud or anything, I would suspend him for 5 days without pay and tell him that it would remain in his work file for 2 years as well as caution him against anymore dishonesty.
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Old 12-04-2007, 08:29 PM
 
4,519 posts, read 8,451,294 times
Reputation: 2141
Default Fraud by definition...

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevK View Post
Dishonesty is pretty black and white to me. If his lies did not involve covering up fraud or anything, I would suspend him for 5 days without pay and tell him that it would remain in his work file for 2 years as well as caution him against anymore dishonesty.
Sorry. His dishonesty WAS fraud - clear and simple...

fraud (frd)

1. A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain.
2. A piece of trickery; a trick.
3. a. One that defrauds; a cheat.
b. One who assumes a false pose; an impostor.

definition copied from Online Dictionary, Encyclopedia and Thesaurus. Free access.

Last edited by World Citizen; 12-04-2007 at 08:35 PM.. Reason: added reference for definition
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Old 12-04-2007, 11:04 PM
 
Location: Fountain Hills, Arizona
416 posts, read 1,796,861 times
Reputation: 133
Terminate him. If he lied on his application, he could end up doing other dishonest or unethical practices at work. You have the right to do this. It will only teach him a lesson and will save your company any potential hardship. He might be good, but remember ethics.
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Old 12-05-2007, 06:06 AM
 
Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
16,249 posts, read 11,817,416 times
Reputation: 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by World Citizen View Post
Sorry. His dishonesty WAS fraud - clear and simple...

fraud (frd)

1. A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain.
2. A piece of trickery; a trick.
3. a. One that defrauds; a cheat.
b. One who assumes a false pose; an impostor.

definition copied from Online Dictionary, Encyclopedia and Thesaurus. Free access.
What I meant was that it didn't involve him stealing money or covering up a past crime. He lied about his job experience. If he were an excellent employee otherwise, I would not fire him. But he would be punished for the deception and it would be made clear that any further ethic lapses would lead to termination.
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Old 04-17-2009, 03:06 AM
 
2,365 posts, read 7,866,818 times
Reputation: 666
So what happened?

But to my way of thinking, is to ask yourself why? you did or do a security check? Or why anyone does a security check? If he passes the security check when he was hired or now? Then why make creating a fake company an issue of security. He passed your security check, but failed your ethics check. But the government contractor was not asking you to do an ethics check?

In the law, i think you would be on shaky ground!! to fire him, since his inclusion of a fake company/reference did not detract from his ability to do the job. But you could make up a reason to fire him, if that is your goal.

I wish people would remember that you hire someone to provide a service and in exchange they provide the service for money. end of story! not whether or not they fail your ethics test, unless that is a crucial part of the job, like being a pastor or psychologist or judge or auditor.

However, if i were asked this question by the person in question, i would suggest that they should volunteer for 6 months somewhere and get a reference. One of my sisters has this problem of not having any references... and I tell her to volunteer to get that needed reference. It is better than making up a fake company and getting your friends to lie for you.

But i too have fibbed on a school app. i needed a reference and got one of my family members who has an important job to give me a reference, since his last name is different than mine, along with a couple of other non-family references! I got the scholarship and got to take advantage of a wonderful opporunity!! Sometimes you do what you have to do...



Originally Posted by Dingler
At my office we have an employee who is just terrific. He has a great personality and a unique way with people. He also has unique technical skills and a real great work style. He puts in long hours without complaint and is always available for extra work. ------------But we also found out he lied big time on his employment application.

When he was hired a year ago, he made up a fake company, paycheck stub, and got a few friends to act as boss. It fooled the new guy in HR who checked has references.

A few weeks ago we had someone recheck every-ones backgrounds as part of a ongoing security check for a government contract. Our superstar employees lies were exposed. What should we do about it?
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Old 04-17-2009, 10:03 PM
 
424 posts, read 1,288,871 times
Reputation: 196
I believe a strong majority of people lie on the job applications. Many of them accept the position and than can't do the job. This person lied on his application, but guess what...he can actually perform. I'd keep him on, but watch with hypervigilence in the following cases:

Sex offender (rape, pedophelia, etc.)
Embezzelment
Violence
Aggravated assault
Murder (if it were me...they would be gone if it was 1st degree).

Things like misdemeanors, really old crimes, drug charges (unless you run a clinic or pharmacy), non-violent crimes...who cares. We all make mistakes. I would reinforce you are aware of the past and it has worked out for now, but future problems will not be tolerated.
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Old 08-16-2012, 01:05 PM
 
300 posts, read 397,141 times
Reputation: 259
It sounded like he lied to get his foot in the door for a job that he can do. I actually don't blame the guy for doing because I'm planning on doing it myself after all it did work because it got your attention and eventually the job. If he had been honest and said he didn't have the experience would you still have hired him? My guess is probably not. I know it's a sad world we live in but sometimes lying on a resume or interview is our best shot at the job.
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Old 08-16-2012, 01:11 PM
 
16,980 posts, read 7,610,854 times
Reputation: 6293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dingler View Post
At my office we have an employee who is just terrific. He has a great personality and a unique way with people. He also has unique technical skills and a real great work style. He puts in long hours without complaint and is always available for extra work. ------------But we also found out he lied big time on his employment application.

When he was hired a year ago, he made up a fake company, paycheck stub, and got a few friends to act as boss. It fooled the new guy in HR who checked has references.

A few weeks ago we had someone recheck every-ones backgrounds as part of a ongoing security check for a government contract. Our superstar employees lies were exposed. What should we do about it?
Does not firing him violate the terms of the government contract, regarding security clearences or checks?
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