Seeking some advice from Hourly Workers in Office Settings (employee, average, unemployment)

[Further North]

Hi Everyone,

First off I want to give you some background info, then I've got some questions to ask at the bottom.

So fortunately I FINALLY got a job after 8 months of unemployment recently. Unfortunately though, I'm honestly a bit concerned about the company's attitude and how it has been going so far. Let's just say they've been quite a bit "informal" about things thus far. I never got an actual written offer from them to begin with. They just threw a salary figure at me and kinda "dangled a carrot" saying that I'd go through a probationary period to see how I picked up on the new software I'm using, and if things were going well I'd get a raise. I asked in reply how long that probation will be and how much my raise could potentially be. His response was "you'll determine when you get more." As you can see, not much accountability here. His main concern is how well I would learn a new 3D Modeling and Engineering software package I am using and how quickly I can become proficient at it.

Well, now I've been on the job 3 weeks and I'm starting to worry a bit here. I AM picking up on the software and actively using it now, but I'm doing this completely on my own. Now one else in the company uses it and I could really use the kind of help you get from asking another experienced user. Unfortunately I can watch generic animations and read "How To" help pages all day long, but nothing substitutes SEEING IT in real life in front of you. All these tutorial files are also generally setup to work EVERY TIME. When you actually DO IT yourself, you run into problems. The best analogy I can make here is just because you read the manual about flying an airplane, doesn't mean you can do it flawlessly the 1st time. I can't turn around and say "Hey Bob, can you tell me how to get this command to work?" So things are going relatively slow, but I feel like I'm starting to get it.

So today the company owner started kinda throwing his weight around saying. "Is that done yet? Peter (the guy I replaced after he left) coulda done that in a day. Do I have to call him in to model stuff too? You gotta get faster at this. If it takes you this long I don't make any money on the project because of the hours you're putting into it! You need to work on learning this more on your own on the weekends or whatever."

Well, I think that's pretty damn unfair to compare me to the performance of an EXPERIENCED USER vs. me just learning on the job without formal training. Of course I'm going to be slower and run into problems. I don't like the "your billable hours are too costing me too much" argument either because I'm on the pay roll and I'm not an outside contractor. Nor is he having me track my exact hours either. Personally, if I was doing something like this as a contract project, I'd set a fixed amount for an Engineering Time cost expense, and go by what I'd consider a normal average. There's no way in hell I'd bill someone for my actual hours at this stage. Compound that with the fact that the guy knows nothing about using the software, so I can't really relate to him how hard it can be to learn this stuff sometimes. Getting fast comes with EXPERIENCE. So I'm starting to be afraid that he's gonna say "this just isn't working out" at some point and cut me lose after my "probationary period" of unknown length.

So I want to try and make amends here and I'm trying to think of a rational approach here to showing that I'm dedicated to learning this and getting faster. If it were up to me, I'd just stay as late as I could to get **** done until they lock the place up for the night and kick me out. Not an issue at all if you're on salary right?

The problem is, I'm on an hourly wage, and instead of paying over time, they usually bank hours for everyone. That's fine and dandy if THEY ask me to stay over to finish a project, but I highly doubt they're going to want to give me a ton of banked hours just because I'm not performing as fast as they think I should. And further more, I only get a week of vacation and they basically went out and said "but you can use your banked hours to get more." Thus, me coming to him and saying "I know you think I'm not working fast enough yet, so I'm willing to stay late on a regular basis to get my projects done and do what it takes to learn this properly" isn't really an option for me.

So what I'm wondering is, do you think it would be wise for me to volunteer to stay later (potentially 50-55 hr week) and to WAIVE the accumulation of banked hours until I'm proficient at the software in an effort to show that I'm committed to the job?

I could care less if I'm there til 5:30 or 6 (if that's the time they typically close up. I leave at 4, normal hours are until 5) if it means preserving my job.

Is that technically legal from a compensation stand point if I am considered hourly and they are not comping me for my overtime?

Would I be better off asking them to switch me over to salary instead and eliminate that whole gray area?

Frankly I think this SHOULD be a salary position. Hourly works just fine for unskilled and skilled labor positions, manufacturing, shift work, etc. But when you're in a professional environment and working with computers for IT, programing, Engineering, etc. it just makes more sense to have people on salary IMO. It enables you to GET ISHT DONE if you have to in order to meet deadlines. I'd be perfectly happy if they would let me switch over to salary and forgo the accumulation of banked hours for overtime if they gave me 2 weeks vacation. Hell I'd gladly work 50 hrs a week in that case.

Any advice is appreciated. I'm sure some of you will say "find a better job." Ultimately I think this is NOT a job I see holding long term so I am still looking for a better one, but I need to have SOMETHING now and I don't want to put myself at risk for losing it.

[Hemlock140]

There are laws requiring overtime pay for hourly workers in most states, check with your department of labor or whatever it's called there. Clearly
they are taking advantage, they should either pay you overtime or provide you with the training you need, even if they have to bring in a consultant or send you to some outside training program.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by Further North

The problem is, I'm on an hourly wage, and instead of paying over time, they usually bank hours for everyone. That's fine and dandy if THEY ask me to stay over to finish a project, but I highly doubt they're going to want to give me a ton of banked hours just because I'm not performing as fast as they think I should. And further more, I only get a week of vacation and they basically went out and said "but you can use your banked hours to get more." Thus, me coming to him and saying "I know you think I'm not working fast enough yet, so I'm willing to stay late on a regular basis to get my projects done and do what it takes to learn this properly" isn't really an option for me.

So what I'm wondering is, do you think it would be wise for me to volunteer to stay later (potentially 50-55 hr week) and to WAIVE the accumulation of banked hours until I'm proficient at the software in an effort to show that I'm committed to the job?

I could care less if I'm there til 5:30 or 6 (if that's the time they typically close up. I leave at 4, normal hours are until 5) if it means preserving my job.

Is that technically legal from a compensation stand point if I am considered hourly and they are not comping me for my overtime?

Where do you live? It's against the law in most states for them to 'bank' overtime hours for time off. Many companies do it or a blend of overtime and comp time, but it is against the law. You need to keep detailed records of all your hours so you can be compensated for them if you decide to take legal action in the future. I tell all salary personnel to do the same because salary workers are entitled to all back overtime worked if the employer starts treating them as hourly workers. As an employee, it's always a good idea to keep detailed time records for yourselt--at home--because you never know what the future holds.

Originally Posted by Further North

Would I be better off asking them to switch me over to salary instead and eliminate that whole gray area?

Frankly I think this SHOULD be a salary position. Hourly works just fine for unskilled and skilled labor positions, manufacturing, shift work, etc. But when you're in a professional environment and working with computers for IT, programing, Engineering, etc. it just makes more sense to have people on salary IMO. It enables you to GET ISHT DONE if you have to in order to meet deadlines. I'd be perfectly happy if they would let me switch over to salary and forgo the accumulation of banked hours for overtime if they gave me 2 weeks vacation. Hell I'd gladly work 50 hrs a week in that case.

You can try but I doubt you'll get the extra week of vacation out of him unless you present your case strongly that it will save him money. Don't mention the overtime laws. Instead discuss it purely in terms of how it will save him money. He sounds like a jerk so you have to think like a jerk to figure out what will motivate a jerk.

Originally Posted by Further North

Any advice is appreciated. I'm sure some of you will say "find a better job." Ultimately I think this is NOT a job I see holding long term so I am still looking for a better one, but I need to have SOMETHING now and I don't want to put myself at risk for losing it.

Understood. In the meantime, definitely start looking for another job.

[Further North]

Originally Posted by Hopes

Where do you live? It's against the law in most states for them to 'bank' overtime hours for time off. Many companies do it or a blend of overtime and comp time, but it is against the law. You need to keep detailed records of all your hours so you can be compensated for them if you decide to take legal action in the future. I tell all salary personnel to do the same because salary workers are entitled to all back overtime worked if the employer starts treating them as hourly workers. As an employee, it's always a good idea to keep detailed time records for yourselt--at home--because you never know what the future holds.

Good advice! It's really starting to look like I might need that as evidence for a new unemployment claim. I really think this guy is being unreasonable at this point. I was honest and up front with him that I needed to learn the software and it would take me some time to be proficient at it.

I honestly believe that my OTHER knowledge would make me a GREAT fit for the position. Like the other small companies I've worked for, they have a need for additional "artistic skills" like Graphic Design, Web Design, and Photo Editing that a straight up CAD Monkey isn't going to have. When things get slow for actual design work, I could be taking pictures of inventory product, updating the website, and re-designing the catalog, etc. Not to mention unlike a guy with an Engineering Degree or an Associates in the engineering software from a Tech College I can visualize and sketch out my ideas in perspective. Most Engineers can't draw a stick figure to save their lives. So IMO, in the long run once I actually have a chance to properly LEARN what I'm working on I would be a more well rounded, valuable employee to the company.

Should he have hired someone that's experienced with the software instead? If he expected INSTANT results then Yes, he probably should have. I also think that someone else that doesn't have the background I have wouldn't have contributed as much either. In the short term sure they'd be meeting his expectations for speed, but when things get slow and there's nothing else for that person to do, the company would be even more frustrated by paying him to do work on tasks that really aren't driving new business, and sooner or later that employee would be bored and frustrated with the work if they get delegated to other tasks. These guys design and install super HIGH END carved stone architectural work like staircases, fountains, fireplaces, etc that are reproductions of classic architecture. Think half million dollar projects with stone from Brazil or Egypt. He claims they are doing well business wise and having a good work flow, but I honestly DON'T think that business is bullet proof at all. Sooner or later you're going to run out of clients willing to pay that much. That's when I could be redesigning the catalog or something, while the Associate Degree CAD Monkey is answering the phones or sweeping the warehouse to stay busy.

I feel like I really HAVE to assert myself on Monday as to what I'm willing to do above and beyond my 40 hrs without any fair compensation on their part.

I'm thinking more and more about telling him on Monday that I'm willing to put in the extra time above and beyond my 40 hours to insure that I'm getting things done in an acceptable time frame, but that I'd like to discuss setting up a definitive Probationary Period for me. I'm thinking that I either ask him to switch me to salaried so there's no gray area on how my extra hours are being paid, or that I'll work extra time off the clock for the next 3 months, but after that we need to discuss where I'm at and start accounting for my extra hours as banked time.

Does that sound reasonable?

I feel like if I DON'T set some kind of WRITTEN agreement with him regarding this issue, he's just gonna walk all over me on it.

And honestly, if at the the end of the three months his expectations and attitude are still the same and I haven't satisfied him yet, I may just bail regardless.