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Old 03-06-2011, 03:51 PM
 
1,446 posts, read 3,545,093 times
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When someone says they are fluent in a language, to what extend are they knowledgeable in the language?

Is there a way of measuring this?

I have taken classes in Spanish for the past 6 years, talk to others in Spanish(although past-present gets mixed up), and can understand what they are talking about, but does that mean I am fluent?

I see some people say they speak some Dutch or Japanese, but they only know a little past basic greetings. Certainly not someone I'd want to end up in a Belgian marketplace with.
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Old 03-06-2011, 04:00 PM
 
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There is a system of measurement, called the International Language Roundtable. There are levels of proficiency: elementary proficiency, working proficiency, professional proficiency, native speaker.

Generally an employer means professional proficiency or native speaker, when they say 'fluent'. That is, you shoudl be able to speak, read, and write fluidly. That means correct grammar, easily conversant, and able to participate in discourse on business topics pertaining to the profession in question. Native speaker means you can do all of these and transition between languages with ease.

From the sounds of it, you are at the elementary proficiency or less. Being able to say hello, please, and thank you--is not considered fluent.

There are various organizations that offer tests you can take to demonstrate your level of proficiency, if you're looking for a credential to add to your resume.
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Old 03-06-2011, 04:18 PM
 
1,446 posts, read 3,545,093 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Java378 View Post
When someone says they are fluent in a language, to what extend are they knowledgeable in the language?

Is there a way of measuring this?

I have taken classes in Spanish for the past 6 years, talk to others in Spanish(although past-present gets mixed up), and can understand what they are talking about, but does that mean I am fluent?

I see some people say they speak some Dutch or Japanese,
but they only know a little past basic greetings. Certainly not someone I'd want to end up in a Belgian marketplace with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kodaka View Post
There is a system of measurement, called the International Language Roundtable. There are levels of proficiency: elementary proficiency, working proficiency, professional proficiency, native speaker.

Generally an employer means professional proficiency or native speaker, when they say 'fluent'. That is, you shoudl be able to speak, read, and write fluidly. That means correct grammar, easily conversant, and able to participate in discourse on business topics pertaining to the profession in question. Native speaker means you can do all of these and transition between languages with ease.

From the sounds of it, you are at the elementary proficiency or less. Being able to say hello, please, and thank you--is not considered fluent.


There are various organizations that offer tests you can take to demonstrate your level of proficiency, if you're looking for a credential to add to your resume.

Although I should thank you for the information.

How did you get that from what I said?

I was talking about others in that paragraph.
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Old 03-06-2011, 05:15 PM
 
4,796 posts, read 22,861,097 times
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Your taking offense is due solely to you not accurately comprehending what I wrote.

You said YOU have studied a language for six years and get verb tenses confused. That puts you squarely in the 'elementary proficiency' category per ILR standards.

You said OTHERS can only say basic things like hello and thank you. That puts them squarely in no category per ILR standards.
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Old 03-06-2011, 05:53 PM
 
1,446 posts, read 3,545,093 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kodaka View Post
Your taking offense is due solely to you not accurately comprehending what I wrote.

You said YOU have studied a language for six years and get verb tenses confused. That puts you squarely in the 'elementary proficiency' category per ILR standards.

You said OTHERS can only say basic things like hello and thank you. That puts them squarely in no category per ILR standards.

I was just asking for an explanation. I thought you became mixed up in my paragraphs.
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Old 03-06-2011, 06:02 PM
 
18,837 posts, read 37,256,775 times
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Language proficiency means different things depending on where you live, and the job you have, for example, where I work everyone is supposed to be proficient in English. Total joke, most speak Spanish all day to everyone, and never a word of English...yet they "supposedly" took a test on English to get the job...whatever...
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Old 03-06-2011, 06:15 PM
 
1,446 posts, read 3,545,093 times
Reputation: 603
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasper12 View Post
Language proficiency means different things depending on where you live, and the job you have, for example, where I work everyone is supposed to be proficient in English. Total joke, most speak Spanish all day to everyone, and never a word of English...yet they "supposedly" took a test on English to get the job...whatever...

It could be possible that Spanish is just their preferred language to communicate in.

Like I have shortcomings in speaking certain English words(since I have never heard them spoken before), it doesn't mean that someone cannot be able to read and write in a language and not be able to speak it well.
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Old 03-06-2011, 10:23 PM
 
Location: 53179
14,416 posts, read 22,406,925 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Java378 View Post
When someone says they are fluent in a language, to what extend are they knowledgeable in the language?

Is there a way of measuring this?

I have taken classes in Spanish for the past 6 years, talk to others in Spanish(although past-present gets mixed up), and can understand what they are talking about, but does that mean I am fluent?

I see some people say they speak some Dutch or Japanese, but they only know a little past basic greetings. Certainly not someone I'd want to end up in a Belgian marketplace with.

to me, being fluent means that you can speak a language without any hesitations, without any major errors. I am fluent in Swedish, because that is my native tongue, but I also consider myself fluent in English.
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Old 03-07-2011, 01:47 PM
 
14,989 posts, read 23,799,586 times
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I recently interviewed a person for a bilingual job - Portuguese. The other person said he was fluent, yeah right. I had another portugues interviewer with me and the test was simply to converse with him, no BS proficiency test. Yeah, he knew basic greeting and tried to fake his way with Spanish. It was embarassing for him. It was pretty clear he did not know Portuguese and we dumped him real quick. People - don't try to fake your way through a foreign language in business. "Fluent" obviously means more than basic greetings.

For the OP, it's my understanding that you can't learn a language with classes alone (except for, yeah, basic greetings, etc). I don't care how many years you took classes. The only thing that works is immersion.
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Old 03-07-2011, 02:17 PM
 
Location: 53179
14,416 posts, read 22,406,925 times
Reputation: 14476
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
I recently interviewed a person for a bilingual job - Portuguese. The other person said he was fluent, yeah right. I had another portugues interviewer with me and the test was simply to converse with him, no BS proficiency test. Yeah, he knew basic greeting and tried to fake his way with Spanish. It was embarassing for him. It was pretty clear he did not know Portuguese and we dumped him real quick. People - don't try to fake your way through a foreign language in business. "Fluent" obviously means more than basic greetings.

For the OP, it's my understanding that you can't learn a language with classes alone (except for, yeah, basic greetings, etc). I don't care how many years you took classes. The only thing that works is immersion.

Did he know the other guy was Portuguese? How embarrassing!
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