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Old 05-22-2011, 05:37 PM
 
8,268 posts, read 10,314,633 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raymond2 View Post
When we see a disproportionate number of Asians (foreign & domestic) in top American universities and even Asians winning English spelling bees every year, it's about time we let go of our superior than thou attitudes and face reality.
This has more to do attitudes towards education, and those Asian kids winning spelling bees probably (grew up in the United States) is exactly my point: they emphasize studying extremely hard using rote memorization to regurgitate on command for a test.


Quote:
Historically, China has been extremely innovative, you don't judge an entire continent's future potential because it fell behind a few hundred years when they led the world by a few thousand years.
I certainly wasn't judging China's future. I was merely making a statement about lack of innovation in China right now, and judging the continent by their current culture seems a much better barometer than accomplishments in the Qing Dynasty.

Many Chinese academics and business leaders have recognized this in China's education system and have spoken out about the need for reforming a system that is geared towards passing standardized exams.


Lee Kaifu: China
On September 15th, at the 2010 Summer Davos Forum held in Tianjin, Lee Kaifu, former Google China president and now the president and CEO of Innovation Factory, suggested that it is very unlikely that China will foster entrepreneurial success with the likes of Apple Inc. and Google Inc anytime soon. "It is unlikely for at least 50 to 100 years. China needs to reconfigure an entirely new way of educating their young before something like this can be achieved," Lee is reported as saying.
"Most of us dream of becoming the next Apple and the next Google," Lee continued, "But the next Apple and Google won't be coming out of China, nor will they be from Asia. It is more likely that the successors to these innovative companies are going to come from America. Their entrepreneurs have been taught to think freely and look beyond the obvious for better innovation. America has always been a leader over other countries in this respect."




I'm not saying they won't become a world leader in innovation someday, but I'll certainly take issue with claim by poster that right now the cream of the crop is in China and India, it just isn't the case.
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Old 05-22-2011, 05:38 PM
 
24,511 posts, read 33,880,289 times
Reputation: 12761
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinkieMcGee View Post
Google and Facebook seem to be doing just fine, but they also actually pay their engineers 6 figures.

Outsourcing has more to do with employers not understanding the reality of the market and trying to depress the cost of skilled labor. The people that are actually good technically move here to get paid fair rates.
Google is all for outsourcing.
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Old 05-22-2011, 05:50 PM
 
333 posts, read 659,227 times
Reputation: 267
Outsourcing is not the same as offshoring.
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Old 05-22-2011, 05:51 PM
 
3,288 posts, read 3,854,266 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
Google is all for outsourcing.
Thanks for the insightful commentary.

The War for Talent Continues for the Web Giants – Jobs. Trends. Insight.

Google Salaries | Glassdoor.com

Pretty sure the Indian dudes aren't getting paid that well.

These companies have high standards because people that are good get paid well. If you suck you're not going to get a job and if you do it won't be high paying. Americans that whine about this are incompetent and should find a different field that they can actually compete in.
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Old 05-22-2011, 06:08 PM
 
398 posts, read 1,185,228 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slackjaw View Post
This has more to do attitudes towards education, and those Asian kids winning spelling bees probably (grew up in the United States) is exactly my point: they emphasize studying extremely hard using rote memorization to regurgitate on command for a test.
Since these are AMERICAN kids... you are saying that they just "regurgitate" on command?? An Inaccurate stereotype.

Spelling bees are also about creativity and requires an understanding of LANGUAGE which is why they ask for definitions and the cultural origins of words since they can't simply memorize EVERY word in existence.

Those Asian kids often speak 2 or more languages while the anglo-americans often speak only one.
Spelling bee is far more than memorization.


Quote:
Originally Posted by slackjaw View Post
I certainly wasn't judging China's future. I was merely making a statement about lack of innovation in China right now, and judging the continent by their current culture seems a much better barometer than accomplishments in the Qing Dynasty.
China was equal to and / or led the world for most of it's history, for a few thousand of years.
The Qing dynasty (1644-1912) was ruled by the foreign Manchus and this is the dynasty in which China fell behind the West.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slackjaw View Post
Many Chinese academics and business leaders have recognized this in China's education system and have spoken out about the need for reforming a system that is geared towards passing standardized exams.
Yes, because China is still mostly a 3rd world peasant country and is culturally and technologically outdated outside of it's modern special economic zones. What they have achieved while being mostly a 3rd world country is still pretty amazing.

They have been behind the West in the past few centuries as I've already said.
Once the majority of people modernize and catchup, it is expected that innovation will follow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slackjaw View Post
On September 15th, at the 2010 Summer Davos Forum held in Tianjin, Lee Kaifu, former Google China president and now the president and CEO of Innovation Factory, suggested that it is very unlikely that China will foster entrepreneurial success with the likes of Apple Inc. and Google Inc anytime soon. "It is unlikely for at least 50 to 100 years. China needs to reconfigure an entirely new way of educating their young before something like this can be achieved," Lee is reported as saying.
"Most of us dream of becoming the next Apple and the next Google," Lee continued, "But the next Apple and Google won't be coming out of China, nor will they be from Asia. It is more likely that the successors to these innovative companies are going to come from America. Their entrepreneurs have been taught to think freely and look beyond the obvious for better innovation. America has always been a leader over other countries in this respect."
Of course, China has a large agricultural society of peasants so they must culturally adapt along with gaining technical knowledge.
That is why they are working extremely hard to change... while westerners are working to stay the same.

That acknowledgement proves China understands their reality and are thereby capable of changing it to shape their future.
As far as the timeline, who would have predicted China under a communist government would be the growing economic giant it is today back in the 1950's?

Outsourcing / Offshoring isn't ONLY about cheaper, it also represents their FAITH in where they are investing for the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slackjaw View Post
I'm not saying they won't become a world leader in innovation someday, but I'll certainly take issue with claim by poster that right now the cream of the crop is in China and India, it just isn't the case.
I'd agree that the cream of the crop is in America at this time and America has a multi-cultural workforce even WITHOUT outsourcing. Since America is a land of immigrants, America will always be a source for future innovation too.

I don't think Europe has been doing that much... I'll give Japan more credit than Europe.

Last edited by raymond2; 05-22-2011 at 07:18 PM..
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Old 05-22-2011, 06:34 PM
 
24,511 posts, read 33,880,289 times
Reputation: 12761
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinkieMcGee View Post
Thanks for the insightful commentary.

The War for Talent Continues for the Web Giants – Jobs. Trends. Insight.

Google Salaries | Glassdoor.com

Pretty sure the Indian dudes aren't getting paid that well.

These companies have high standards because people that are good get paid well. If you suck you're not going to get a job and if you do it won't be high paying. Americans that whine about this are incompetent and should find a different field that they can actually compete in.
Yes, I know all this. I work closely with Google and am well versed in how they work. I don't know anything about Facebook though.

You don't mention anything about the fact that Google has thousands of corporations outsourcing TO them. How many large companies and other organizations have outsourced email services to Google? How about search services? How about analytics? And soon products like OpenSocial, etc. Google is a benefactor of outsourcing. They are also a huge power driving technology outsourcing.

You're welcome for my insightful commentary.
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Old 05-22-2011, 06:41 PM
 
3,288 posts, read 3,854,266 times
Reputation: 816
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
Yes, I know all this. I work closely with Google and am well versed in how they work. I don't know anything about Facebook though.

You don't mention anything about the fact that Google has thousands of corporations outsourcing TO them. How many large companies and other organizations have outsourced email services to Google? How about search services? How about analytics? And soon products like OpenSocial, etc. Google is a benefactor of outsourcing. They are also a huge power driving technology outsourcing.

You're welcome for my insightful commentary.
Yeah, Google is a great company and is able to attract business by making good product.

I believe the outsourcing that is being referred to in this thread, for those of us that understand things like "context", is in reference to cheap labor in foreign countries.
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Old 05-22-2011, 06:47 PM
 
24,511 posts, read 33,880,289 times
Reputation: 12761
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinkieMcGee View Post
Yeah, Google is a great company and is able to attract business by making good product.

I believe the outsourcing that is being referred to in this thread, for those of us that understand things like "context", is in reference to cheap labor in foreign countries.
That would be offshoring. Post #5 clarifies this and both are being discussed in this thread, using their respective terms. You can't take a term that means one thing and assume it means something else.

Also the OP says "outsourcing in America", not "offshoring/outsourcing overseas".
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Old 05-22-2011, 06:51 PM
 
3,288 posts, read 3,854,266 times
Reputation: 816
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
That would be offshoring. Post #5 clarifies this and both are being discussed in this thread, using their respective terms. You can't take a term that means one thing and assume it means something else.

Also the OP says "outsourcing in America", not "offshoring/outsourcing overseas".
If it makes you happy you can assume I meant offshoring and we can end the pedantic part of your argument.
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Old 05-22-2011, 06:55 PM
 
24,511 posts, read 33,880,289 times
Reputation: 12761
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinkieMcGee View Post
If it makes you happy you can assume I meant offshoring and we can end the pedantic part of your argument.
Sure, I will now that you pointed out your mistake.

But in reality, I wasn't trying to argue over the terms. My point was that Google is for outsourcing. You (by mistake) implied that they aren't.
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