Do you think HR costs companies great talent? (tips, application, unemployment)
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As always I am utterly fascinated by these sorts of posts.
Just who exactly do you think writes the job descriptions for these positions? It is not HR. HR may have a VERY general job description that has been used in the past, but it is the HIRING MANAGER who is responsible for writing the job description in every company I have worked for in the past. In other words there may be a company generic Business Analyst job description that HR has but the hiring manager has to then add in the actual particulars. HR does make sure that the hiring manager is not adding in things that could get the company in trouble such as "must be a female who is young and attractive."
In places I have worked, HR does a pre-screen. What they prescreen for is what the MANAGER wants. I have been on the end of the HR recruiter who tells me flat out the hiring manager is looking for this exact experience but since I have something directly transferable they have tried to pass me along but the manager has come back with either a yay or nay.
What exactly do you want to do different than an interview? A trial period is not feasible for just any applicant there are costs involved.. significant costs. Hiring and training someone is expensive. It interferes in departments regular production work. You don't hire someone as a trial just because. You hire to fill the position permanently unless it is a contract position or a finite position (aka many jobs may be until funding of a grant completes, etc).
The resume tips you see online and the job interview tips are generally common sense (although not common sense for some folks) to help you act with a certain level of business decorum.
Why write a 3 page resume when it is not customary for normal resumes to be 2 pages? Unless you are submitting a CV (and lets face it not many folks have a need for a true CV) then 2 pages is generally standard. More than 2 pages and you are probably not editing yourself all that much. Your resume is a highlight and meant to provoke interest to interview you-- it is a marketing tool not a biography.
Same way with the vast majority of jobs can be done in jeans, but why show up to an interview so casual unless the job specifically calls for that type of casual dress?
At the end of the day, I am sure some candidates who would be viable dont make it through the applicant systems, but it is doubtful that there are not enough viable candidates making it through the applicant systems. The truth of the matter is that for most job seekers there are plenty of others who have similar job skills and just as qualified as another. For other positions-- there is less competition.
I am not sure what people expect for the volumes of applicants applying for jobs. Do you want the hiring manager to screen each one? Lets be frank that is NOT the best use of a hiring manager's job.
The best way to get through or past an applicant tracking system is to network your way into the company. Plain and simple.
I don't know lovetheduns, maybe it's the type of work one does. Most resumes in my field (software development) are 2-3 pages after a few years experience. I guess if you're an accountant your whole life, maybe things don't really change that much company to company. IT changes all the time and we like to see relevant experience pertaining to a particular skill set and how it was used and in what roles on previous projects/locations of work.
Anyway, I've interviewed plenty of people over the last few years and I've never made a decision on a candidate based on how their resume is formatted or how wordy or brief it is. Hiring managers aren't receiving thousands of resumes a day in my field, so again, maybe it depends on the type of work.
Some of the items listed are definite no-nos and should be common sense, but some of them are very superficial.
Why would you care if someone added an objective statement? Why would you care if someone used the words duties or responsibilities? Who cares if the person added a reference? Why would you hold that against them? Why post a position if you don't have the time to find the best candidate?
I don't know lovetheduns, maybe it's the type of work one does. Most resumes in my field (software development) are 2-3 pages after a few years experience. I guess if you're an accountant your whole life, maybe things don't really change that much company to company. IT changes all the time and we like to see relevant experience pertaining to a particular skill set and how it was used and in what roles on previous projects/locations of work.
Anyway, I've interviewed plenty of people over the last few years and I've never made a decision on a candidate based on how their resume is formatted or how wordy or brief it is. Hiring managers aren't receiving thousands of resumes a day in my field, so again, maybe it depends on the type of work.
This reminds me of a question that was asked at a law school open house I went to with one of my best friends who is applying to law school. The personal statement was supposed to be no more than 3 pages. One applicant asked would the school not read a longer one (apparently she wrote 10 pages--) they said... hey we are nice people we will read it but why would you go so against the norm-- it would not automatically put you in the hell no pile, but it probably wouldn't help your case either. Now down the street-- they may immediately throw you in the hell no.
Generally, there are not that many people who warrant a 3+ page resume. Sorry-- but that is true. You don't need to go into every single job you have had. Even in IT-- what you did 15 years ago is probably not all THAT interesting to a current job. One could argue what you did 10 years ago is not all that interesting.
Now if you are a software engineer with multiple patents, etc then a CV would probably be more correct. I had a friend who is a sr software engineering manager at the Fruit company. He had several patents, published research, etc. He used two different formats-- one a resume (2 pages) and one a CV (3+). He would selectively choose which one to submit based on the job. Well before he went to the Fruit company-- he has no desire to leave there.
My point being is that you as a hiring manager may not mind wading through multiple pages of a long resume-- but there are many others who just wont do it. Why put yourself in the position of going way out of norm if you have to?
You can always send in extra supplements with a cover letter to allow the reader to determine whether or not they want to go into deep detail or not.
As I stated before-- a resume is a marketing tool. It is not meant to be your entire history. It is supposed to be a tool that makes someone be interested in wanting to know more about you...
Some of the items listed are definite no-nos and should be common sense, but some of them are very superficial.
Why would you care if someone added an objective statement? Why would you care if someone used the words duties or responsibilities? Who cares if the person added a reference? Why would you hold that against them? Why post a position if you don't have the time to find the best candidate?
Most of that article is just teaching some business writing and decorum. Nothing more.
Other than that it is helping you to try and get your thoughts across concisely and cleanly. Why? Because no one is going to spend ages of time reading over your submission. So don't make yourself stand out less because you can't figure out how to make your resume concise, detailed where it needs to be, and clean.
The objective is just filler. So that is why it is viewed by many as worthless. Your cover letter should do more speaking. Say you are applying for a Project Manager job-- why do you need to say you desire a project manager job while you are applying for that job? It is redundant.
Reference thing-- wasted space for space that could be used to say something important. Like the article said.. everyone knows you will give references it is idiotic to say References Available Upon Request. It is even more weird to give them out as an addendum. No one will do anything with it until they make a decision to interview you or even hire you.
Most of that article is just teaching some business writing and decorum. Nothing more.
Other than that it is helping you to try and get your thoughts across concisely and cleanly. Why? Because no one is going to spend ages of time reading over your submission. So don't make yourself stand out less because you can't figure out how to make your resume concise, detailed where it needs to be, and clean.
The objective is just filler. So that is why it is viewed by many as worthless. Your cover letter should do more speaking. Say you are applying for a Project Manager job-- why do you need to say you desire a project manager job while you are applying for that job? It is redundant.
Reference thing-- wasted space for space that could be used to say something important. Like the article said.. everyone knows you will give references it is idiotic to say References Available Upon Request. It is even more weird to give them out as an addendum. No one will do anything with it until they make a decision to interview you or even hire you.
I'll give you that some of those items are redundant and obvious, but that shouldn't be a "red flag" as the article states. It shouldn't get your resume thrown in the trash heap. The focus should be on content, not formality.
And we'll just have to disagree on the resume length. 2-3 pages is perfectly acceptable in my field for people with at least a few years experience.
Also, IT experience from 15 years ago can be relevant today. Many legacy systems use older technology/languages and often need to look for people who have worked with said technology in the past to fill positions. Also, it might not be the technology but the type of work that you did with the technology in the past that is relevant.
Anyway, I think the 1 page resume is an old standard that is great for college graduates/entry-level type work, but for anyone with real experience, they shouldn't be confined to such formality. Yes, it shouldn't be a novel and you want to stay concise and relevant to the job, but the content should be the focus for the interviewer, not that the resume meets some rigid format.
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I agree with lovetheduns. HR only helps facilitate, the hiring manager makes the decisions. If someone cannot apply online they cannot work for me, because the jobs require advanced computer skills. At my current place and the one before, totaling over 20 years hiring the HR people I have worked with have been dedicated professionals, working hard to maintain fairness in treatment of applicants and abide by employment law.
It looks to me like there are many people here blaming HR people for their lack of ability to beat out the competition for a job. It's not HR, it's the many people out of work that are better qualified.
I'll give you that some of those items are redundant and obvious, but that shouldn't be a "red flag" as the article states. It shouldn't get your resume thrown in the trash heap. The focus should be on content, not formality.
And we'll just have to disagree on the resume length. 2-3 pages is perfectly acceptable in my field for people with at least a few years experience.
Also, IT experience from 15 years ago can be relevant today. Many legacy systems use older technology/languages and often need to look for people who have worked with said technology in the past to fill positions. Also, it might not be the technology but the type of work that you did with the technology in the past that is relevant.
Anyway, I think the 1 page resume is an old standard that is great for college graduates/entry-level type work, but for anyone with real experience, they shouldn't be confined to such formality. Yes, it shouldn't be a novel and you want to stay concise and relevant to the job, but the content should be the focus for the interviewer, not that the resume meets some rigid format.
*sighs*
The article is not saying that your resume is going to go into a trash heap with a bunch of mini monkeys spearing with their swords.
It is basically giving most people an idea that hey you do these things in your resume and you are not putting your best foot forward.
Kind of like the girl who asked at the law school open house if they would read her 10 page personal statement. This law school said they would, but it would probably not make them overwhelmed to bring her into the school. Another school would probably not even give her the time of the day because she can't follow directions or standard procedure.
If you are applying for a job where your experience from 15 years is relevant because it is a legacy COBOL job-- then yes it makes sense to highlight that experience, but it probably doesn't make sense to highlight non directly applicable experience. You don't have to go into detail for each position you have had in the past 10-20 years. There is a reason why the cover letter is available. Each job requires a refinement of your resume to highlight most relevant data.
Also-- you can always direct people to your LinkedIn for more details.
You are right we don't have to agree-- I am not so removed from the software development world and have worked with many architects, engineers, database folks, etc. The only one person I can think of (besides my friend at the Fruit company who has both a CV and a 2 page resume) that has more than 2 pages for a resume is a Sr. VP of a Software Engineering group. However, the items on his third page are the stuff that he views as less important.
My only point being that if you want to go against the norm, you better have a VERY good reason and not just a long drawn out redundant resume that includes filler like you love playing WoW and have a black belt in Taekwondo--
I agree with lovetheduns. HR only helps facilitate, the hiring manager makes the decisions. If someone cannot apply online they cannot work for me, because the jobs require advanced computer skills. At my current place and the one before, totaling over 20 years hiring the HR people I have worked with have been dedicated professionals, working hard to maintain fairness in treatment of applicants and abide by employment law.
It looks to me like there are many people here blaming HR people for their lack of ability to beat out the competition for a job. It's not HR, it's the many people out of work that are better qualified.
And yes unfortunately, it is not because people are so better qualified (though sometimes they are), sometimes it is because they had enough applicants that they chose to interview the first round. Sometimes it is because your resume sucked and didn't grab anyone or the computer even to put you into the candidate pool.
For many non-specialized jobs there are TONS of candidates. Also remember that many people apply for things even if they have no shot. Sometimes they are hoping something sticks.
Once you move into more higher level positions and jobs requiring more specialized skils you are still running into competition from those who are looking for their next move up, those looking for a job even if it were a step down from their previous role, internal candidates, etc.
The market still has A LOT of unemployed people looking for jobs-- and in some cases many people have been underemployed so they are also looking for new positions.
It is not all HR's fault, it is not all the hiring manager's fault. Sometimes in the midst of tons of applicants you simply just don't get picked.
I agree with everything lovetheduns says except the length of the resume. I only know Information Technology/Systems, but everyone I know has a multiple page resume after a few years of work. Especially if they've consulted for any amount of time. The only people I've seen with one page resumes were straight out of University.
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