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Another factor to consider: These days, security/permissions, testing, signoff and deployment can add a lot of time to even the simple programming changes.
My husband is in I/T and I've been listening to him for two days on conference calls trying to get a single line of code change deployed into production.
The best part is that the change being made corrects a spelling error.
Not meaning to question your situation, but in the general sense....
This is the oldest story in the book as far as coding changes. "It's just a simple 5 minute change.".
In the real world, sometimes what seems simple is not; sometimes what seems complex is simple. It depends on so many factors.
A good designer/developer can often create a solution when others cannot(your sample above). Or that good IT person can come up with a quicker/less complex solution where another IT person might make it overly complicated and add time and cost and confusion to the solution. This is one of the most rewarding parts of the job, IMO...to create the masterpiece solution that is easy to maintain going forward. (I just came up with one last night after 3 nights of thinking about the best approach. I am totally stoked about implementing it.)
Another factor to consider: These days, security/permissions, testing, signoff and deployment can add a lot of time to even the simple programming changes.
I know that. I work in a large company. Those controls are indeed in place. SOX would actually add more to it. It's hardly 5 min work.
In a small company, it's very different as they don't need to follow much regulations. The example I gave was from a small company.
The example I used is to show how powerful a programmer can be IF you know how to use him/her.
I too prefer developers who are possess a degree (bachelor's is enough) over those without formal education. Degreed folks are more likely to have a good comprehension of core programming design concepts (regardless of language), and also know how to write good, efficient code that is modular and scalable. They are also more likely to have some exposure working on projects in a team setting. Non-degreed folks may know a bunch of languages, but in my experience many of them aren't very good coders.
Of course, there are exceptions in both groups. A person's desire or lack thereof can make a difference. My boss (the CTO), I and others don't automatically dismiss candidates without a degree...but that candidate's going to have to really impress us.
Also, I too have never experienced "sweatshop" conditions or treatment in the workplace. Like others said, I suspect that is company dependent. It's a good idea to research the company beforehand (including its work culture, if possible). Where I work, we do expect high productivity, motivation and a strong work ethic, but are also big on work/life balance and prioritizing/balancing tasks so that developers don't feel overworked.
I too prefer developers who are possess a degree (bachelor's is enough) over those without formal education. Degreed folks are more likely to have a good comprehension of core programming design concepts (regardless of language), and also know how to write good, efficient code that is modular and scalable. They are also more likely to have some exposure working on projects in a team setting. Non-degreed folks may know a bunch of languages, but in my experience many of them aren't very good coders.
Of course, there are exceptions in both groups. A person's desire or lack thereof can make a difference. My boss (the CTO), I and others don't automatically dismiss candidates without a degree...but that candidate's going to have to really impress us.
Also, I too have never experienced "sweatshop" conditions or treatment in the workplace. Like others said, I suspect that is company dependent. It's a good idea to research the company beforehand (including its work culture, if possible). Where I work, we do expect high productivity, motivation and a strong work ethic, but are also big on work/life balance and prioritizing/balancing tasks so that developers don't feel overworked.
In reality, the only way to tell a good programmer from a bad one is to give them a test.
The test should consist of basics and complex programming questions. It should also require them to actually program.
I tell you, it works like a charm. I have never had a bad programmer once I test them. :-)
I know that. I work in a large company. Those controls are indeed in place. SOX would actually add more to it. It's hardly 5 min work.
In a small company, it's very different as they don't need to follow much regulations. The example I gave was from a small company.
The example I used is to show how powerful a programmer can be IF you know how to use him/her.
We have a one hour min time rule. If it takes five minutes to do/test/deploy/document/whatever then fine, we came in under estimate and can proceed to other things.
But nobody is coming out of a meeting with a list of 10 changes that marketing thinks will take five minutes each and saying we need someone's time for 50 minutes to get 'em done, can we look at around 11:00?
My husband is in I/T and I've been listening to him for two days on conference calls trying to get a single line of code change deployed into production.
The best part is that the change being made corrects a spelling error.
Boy does this hit close to home.
..And I understand the need for tight controls over what goes into a production system but sometimes common sense needs to be take hold.
Way to be open-minded. I don't have formal training in I.T. but I've been considered either the best or one of the best programmers at every company I've ever worked for.
Your loss, I guess.
FWIW, some of the worst programmers I've seen have been those with a formal education in I.T., particularly ones from India. Just sayin'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sware2cod
As far as degree or no degree. I have been in the field long enough to have been around a lot of IT folks over the years. There are lots of top notch IT folks that do not have a degree of any kind and others that have a degree in a field that is not related to IT.
Yes and yes. Same as you guys, some of the very best and brightest I've worked with have no formal degree, and anyone who has been thru a computer science program at a university has seen the students who struggle 3x harder than everyone else to grasp concepts or get things done that still manage to graduate with reasonable grades and enter the field.
We'd prefer to hire people with a degree as it hopefully sets a floor on abilities, but organizations that set it as a hard filter miss out on some great talent out there.
Yes and yes. Same as you guys, some of the very best and brightest I've worked with have no formal degree, and anyone who has been thru a computer science program at a university has seen the students who struggle 3x harder than everyone else to grasp concepts or get things done that still manage to graduate with reasonable grades and enter the field.
We'd prefer to hire people with a degree as it hopefully sets a floor on abilities, but organizations that set it as a hard filter miss out on some great talent out there.
I should qualify my earlier statement.
If we're talking about a programmer with years of hands on, provable experience I'd overlook the lack of degree. But I wouldn't consider a self-taught programmer who was truly entry level and had no formal related degree.
In reality, the only way to tell a good programmer from a bad one is to give them a test.
Best way is word of mouth via personal experience.
If a good developer tells me they know someone who would be a great fit that is who we'll should try to poach. Always hit the network first to fill a need.
Conversely we've had candidates come in who looked good on paper and did great on tests but someone on the team goes "oh yeah I worked with that guy six years ago at xyz, nothing but problems." Eject.
If we're talking about a programmer with years of hands on, provable experience I'd overlook the lack of degree. But I wouldn't consider a self-taught programmer who was truly entry level and had no formal related degree.
I agree, I wasn't trying reference your post was just mentioned those guys experience with bright dev without formal education.
I wouldn't hire a self-taught who has made a couple nice web sites for the local pizza chain either.
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