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Old 04-20-2012, 10:04 AM
 
13,811 posts, read 27,378,934 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
There has to be an analysis done to determine whether the education increases one's probability of becoming hired. Only 20% or of the population is unemployed or underemployed. You have to do what it takes to get yourself out of that bottom 20%. That's your responsibility. In many cases, education helps.
Think about it though. What if the 20% had 4-year or masters degrees overnight. Would unemployment go to 0%? No I think not. There would still be 20% unemployed in this market. The problem isn't education it's lack of middle class jobs.
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Old 04-20-2012, 10:17 AM
 
2,017 posts, read 5,631,228 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
You would think that's the only case... but there's actually a lot of people who are just picky. They would rather work at a grocery store where there are minimal jobs than be an actuary where the pay is high and the jobs are plenty.

The truth of the matter is that people want the actuary jobs, but they don't have the skill required for one. Even at the basic level.

Not surprising really when we have a society that thinks everyone needs high self esteem and there are no losers. Where we value more sports teams than what the college ACTUALLY teaches.

When people rather go into light subjects such as American Studies or Psychology and come out with a bachelors and wonder why in the world can they not make 65k or even 45k coming out of school because they have a "degree" and "skills" that came with that.

To be honest, people in my industry with my skill sets don't look too hard to find new employment. They are still able to afford to be picky. But they all have decent skills and experience in things where you are not some generic office drone.

The reality is that people want to think they are worth 20.00 an hour. But the reality if you are not specialized, if you all you have to offer is data entry, some light Excel work, some light proofreading and some skills that can be pretty much taught on the job or can be mastered in 6 months.. well.. the unfortunate part is that you have A LOT of people to compete with and when that happens pay drops.
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Old 04-20-2012, 10:17 AM
 
Location: Minnesota
1,067 posts, read 1,190,538 times
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Just to comment on the manufacturing plant based out of Manitowoc, Wisconsin. The owner states he cannot find workers for an entry-level press operator position. As others have suggested on this forum wage of $8.50/hr is not very competitive, and I do agree to a certain point, but to a inexperienced younger worker with minimal expenses, this position may be a great stepping stone into a career.

The other problem I see is the employers recruiting method. The owner has shut the door to the unemployed person coming to the plant and the "needs experience" younger worker and requires to them to have worked at a temp/staff agency for at least 90 days before he will accept an application. It has been my experience that many, not all, temp agency require some experience before they send you out on assignment. No experience. No job at the manufacturing plant.


I do agree there are unemployed persons that would rather collect a government check then accept work, but the owner needs to look at how he is recruiting workers.
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Old 04-20-2012, 10:20 AM
 
24,488 posts, read 41,062,294 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelsup View Post
Think about it though. What if the 20% had 4-year or masters degrees overnight. Would unemployment go to 0%? No I think not. There would still be 20% unemployed in this market. The problem isn't education it's lack of middle class jobs.
The beauty of it is that you've painted an impossible scenario. But let's consider it. If everyone had a master degree tomorrow, the bar would just be raised. Then we'd look at those who had masters from uPenn instead of PSU. It will be a struggle for those on the border for sure.
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Old 04-20-2012, 10:25 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,522 posts, read 10,180,602 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
The beauty of it is that you've painted an impossible scenario. But let's consider it. If everyone had a master degree tomorrow, the bar would just be raised. Then we'd look at those who had masters from uPenn instead of PSU. It will be a struggle for those on the border for sure.

Its not an impossible scenario, its happening right now as we speak. The current workforce is more skilled and educated then EVER before, yet the median wage has not risen at all in the past 30 years.

Why is that? Its because the same quality jobs exist, the only difference is that employers have the luxury of picking and choosing from workers with much higher skills, who have spent over a trillion in debt, and trillions more in cash to educate themselves, and then race to the bottom.
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Old 04-20-2012, 10:32 AM
 
24,488 posts, read 41,062,294 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
Its not an impossible scenario, its happening right now as we speak. The current workforce is more skilled and educated then EVER before, yet the median wage has not risen at all in the past 30 years.

Why is that? Its because the same quality jobs exist, the only difference is that employers have the luxury of picking and choosing from workers with much higher skills, who have spent over a trillion in debt, and trillions more in cash to educate themselves, and then race to the bottom.
The point is that there will always be a bottom x0%. Currently it's 20% due to the economy... but ideally it should be around 12% (with unemployment being at 6%). With everyone getting educated these days, you have to make sure you go to a school or program that puts you above the bottom. You have to make sure you study something that puts you above the bottom. Getting any degree from any college is not going to cut it. Debt is easy to wipe out if you're adequately employable.
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Old 04-20-2012, 10:36 AM
 
2,017 posts, read 5,631,228 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelsup View Post
Think about it though. What if the 20% had 4-year or masters degrees overnight. Would unemployment go to 0%? No I think not. There would still be 20% unemployed in this market. The problem isn't education it's lack of middle class jobs.

I haphazard there is more of an issue with lower middle class jobs.

Aka-- the lower level office workers (accounting clerk, AP Clerk, Admin Asst, Title Assistant, Legal Assistant, Customer Service Rep, Payroll Clerk, etc).

Generally speaking many of these jobs require similar skill sets... a decent knowledge of office productivity tools, math skills, following processes, etc.

But usually those jobs do not have the depth and breadth required to be truly considered Professional. I would not consider any of those positions as professionals. They are generalists. I am not going to look towards knowing whether I am following FASB 109 correctly to the accounting clerk. I pretty much want that person to enter numbers into the GL.

Same with the payroll clerk I am not going to rely on that person to understand the compliance for how this relo is going to impact the W2 for an employee.

These jobs are pretty entry level in the "white collar" sector and as such will command a lot of competition from folks who cant find jobs as well those who are just entering the workforce.

I don't see that same churn in more specific professional roles. Even when myself and a classmate were laid off at the beginning of our MBA program we both quickly found jobs (truth be told I found mine before my official layoff and started within 2 weeks of the lay off date). My laid off colleagues are getting jobs left and right-- I only know a handful who have not found something yet-- (and we are talking over 50 were let go) and even out of those-- they are interviewing pretty aggressively.
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Old 04-20-2012, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,522 posts, read 10,180,602 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
The point is that there will always be a bottom x0%.
Thats what Wheelsups point was, and what I was saying.

People like you or annerk sit there and say "Get more training, get a higher degree, blah blah blah", but it doesnt matter how much training someone gets, the same exact crap jobs exist. The only difference is we will have PHD's flipping burgers for $8 an hour and 200k in debt.

Why would they go 200k in debt you ask? Because without the minimum requirement of a PHD, they would be completely unemployable.

Its the same reason why people are getting bachelors degrees to make $10-$15 an hour now, because most of the $10-$15 an hour jobs now REQUIRE a degree.

The people who used to work those jobs, are now either working unskilled labor jobs, are unemployed, or completely dropped out of the workforce.
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Old 04-20-2012, 10:41 AM
 
2,017 posts, read 5,631,228 times
Reputation: 1680
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
Its not an impossible scenario, its happening right now as we speak. The current workforce is more skilled and educated then EVER before, yet the median wage has not risen at all in the past 30 years.

Why is that? Its because the same quality jobs exist, the only difference is that employers have the luxury of picking and choosing from workers with much higher skills, who have spent over a trillion in debt, and trillions more in cash to educate themselves, and then race to the bottom.

I posted recently that there is a bias to college degrees especially if you have one and associate with folks who mainly have college degrees. In my network you would be hard pressed to find a couple who do not have some kind of degree.

The Census report in March 2012 that bachelors degrees in the USA hit just over 30%... not a huge section of the population. And honestly when I think about it.. you have A LOT of crap degrees thrown in there for sure (looking at the sad state of affairs with all of the for profits).

So yes.. it seems like the workforce is so much more skilled than before-- and it is.. if you count educational attainment, but I do think there needs to be a realistic review of what people are "educated" in. The person graduating in Biostatistics is probably doing much better than the Sociology major.

But, with that said.. those with degrees have weathered the storm much better than those who haven't.

I wouldn't put money towards an MFA in Writing, but I would still put money towards a Top 20 MBA, law school, medical school, etc.
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Old 04-20-2012, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,522 posts, read 10,180,602 times
Reputation: 2572
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovetheduns View Post
I haphazard there is more of an issue with lower middle class jobs.

Aka-- the lower level office workers (accounting clerk, AP Clerk, Admin Asst, Title Assistant, Legal Assistant, Customer Service Rep, Payroll Clerk, etc).

Generally speaking many of these jobs require similar skill sets... a decent knowledge of office productivity tools, math skills, following processes, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovetheduns View Post
These jobs are pretty entry level in the "white collar" sector and as such will command a lot of competition from folks who cant find jobs as well those who are just entering the workforce.
Why exactly do these jobs almost always require a bachelors degree and several years of experience then?

You feel pretty safe with your MBA right now, but the day will come when the "accounting clerk" job requires an MBA.
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