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Old 05-12-2012, 07:33 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
29,701 posts, read 24,780,162 times
Reputation: 28388

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Quote:
Originally Posted by redroses777 View Post
I think most people don't really care that there are millions who still unemployed or underemployed. As long as it is not them, then that is all that matters. Many Americans have the attitude that as long as my bank account still looks good, then things are fine. They don't really care that their neighbor is living off ramen noodles and feeding Hamburger Helper to their kids 7 nights a week because thats all they can get from the food bank.

It is like saying....

If I can buy an Ipad, why should I care that my neighbor can't buy his medication?

I just bought a new plasma TV, why should I care that my neighbor has been laid off and his house is in foreclosure?

I just bought the latest Iphone, why should I care that Susie has been unemployed for 99 weeks, is giving up looking for work, and just tried to commit suicide?

Many Americans have these attitudes. It is all about me and that's what matters. Trouble is, ANYONE can find themselves unemployed and broke these days.
I don't that's as true as you think. Most are thankful if it is not them going on 99 weeks. And furthermore, if those with decent money coming in choose to make such purchases, it can only help the situation of others. We are a nation that depends on people with disposable income to spend. It's when people are not spending that we have a problem. Unfortunately, it was spending beyond the means of the masses that largely brought about this mess in the first place, not unlike how the roaring 20's helped to bring on the great depression. Unfortunately, time is the only remedy for such a predicament, and during that time, hardship will be experienced by a large segment of the population.

I for one wish there was not such a wide divide, but there is little anyone can do about it. I wish families were not hurting, but there will always be misfortune in the world. The sheer volume of it today is troubling.
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Old 05-13-2012, 08:42 AM
 
2,017 posts, read 5,631,228 times
Reputation: 1680
Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
This very well could be the new normal. Many successful countries and economies have dealt with unemployment numbers like ours. The difference was better social safety nets that helped the masses boat's rise along with those achieving success. I don't think we quite have that in this country. Those are the marks of 1st world nations.

And the politicians and media is not fooling anyone when they try to convince us things are improving. By the average American's standards, improvement is marked by the paychecks and bennies they bring home after a weeks worth of work. Improvement is marked by the available funds for things like groceries, rent or mortgage, job security, money for their children's post-secondary education, etc. Until there is improvement in that regard, many American's will not see a recovery in sight. As such, many are going to spend accordingly, which happens to be a major driver in this consumer based economy. We have seen a recovery for many large corporations and the investment class of this country however.
And those countries can't afford it either.

If you look at the heavy entitlement countries like Ireland, France, Greece, Spain, etc-- they are STRUGGLING and their budgets are in shambles. France's new president would like to tax those making more than 1M Euro a year at 75% or higher.

England laughed and said come on rich French, bring your prosperity and businesses over the channel, we will not tax you that high.

Frankly, if I were being taxed upwards of 75%, I would leave. There is no point in my taking on all of the risks of business to keep only a fraction of what I make.

At some point, if you have too many people using entitlements, the pyramid begins to crumble. You can see this in pension plans (too many former workers living off pensions with fewer current employees putting in funds to the pension, social security-- not enough money coming in to sustain the long term viability of the plan).

How many times have you had to work in a group for school or even a team at work? There is nothing more demoralizing than being the one carrying the vast bulk of the burden for the work while you have a couple on the team who have every excuse in the world for not getting their work done. Then it falls to those on the team who actually care who have to work extra hard at the end to get the deliverables from the ones who are not performing completed. If I can give fair feedback to a boss or teacher by saying-- Person A didn't do anything and failed to complete any of the assigned work-- then I don't feel so bad. I once had a professor who said if you have a team member who doesn't do their share, insert a blank page of paper for whatever they were supposed to do in the project/paper with their name on the top. So if they were supposed to write say the conclusion but didn't do anything, don't do it for them and then just insert a paper. She then asked if you had to distribute 1,000 between the team members who would get paid what-- for that one horrible team member I put, 0.00 and then get fired.

The same applies to commerce. You tax those to death to support people who are also not adding or contributing to society-- those folks will leave and set up shop elsewhere.

At some point, you can't support a populace who is not productive in society by basically taxing the crap out of those who are productive. Granted there are folks who just can't be productive due to disability or even in their latter years of life when they can not longer take care of themselves, but I don't think the answer is to figure out how you support a social system that makes it more appealing to rely on government help versus adding back into the economy through working even a low wage job.
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Old 05-13-2012, 08:44 AM
 
2,017 posts, read 5,631,228 times
Reputation: 1680
Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
Well, the great depression lasted, by many measures, a whole decade to a decade and a half. In hindsight, that was not the "new norm". Nobody can say for certain where we are headed, and where we will end up. All we can do is do our best given the current circumstances, yet hope for the best tomorrow. I'm hesitant to say this is the new norm, because at the top of the market, nobody thinks things could plummet, and at the bottom of the market, nobody believes things will get better. Following the natural progression of economics, labor markets, ect has taught me these things are not static.
The US was able to move out of the great depression by the World Wars. The rest of the world was decimated and the US was untouched and could step in to rebuild which meant our country had a huge amount of prosperity.

I think without the world war you would see us more looking like some of the present day european countries and their trajectories over the past few decades versus a huge time period of prosperity.
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Old 05-13-2012, 01:41 PM
 
1,148 posts, read 1,680,715 times
Reputation: 1327
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovetheduns View Post
And those countries can't afford it either.

If you look at the heavy entitlement countries like Ireland, France, Greece, Spain, etc-- they are STRUGGLING and their budgets are in shambles. France's new president would like to tax those making more than 1M Euro a year at 75% or higher.

England laughed and said come on rich French, bring your prosperity and businesses over the channel, we will not tax you that high.

Frankly, if I were being taxed upwards of 75%, I would leave. There is no point in my taking on all of the risks of business to keep only a fraction of what I make.

At some point, if you have too many people using entitlements, the pyramid begins to crumble. You can see this in pension plans (too many former workers living off pensions with fewer current employees putting in funds to the pension, social security-- not enough money coming in to sustain the long term viability of the plan).

How many times have you had to work in a group for school or even a team at work? There is nothing more demoralizing than being the one carrying the vast bulk of the burden for the work while you have a couple on the team who have every excuse in the world for not getting their work done. Then it falls to those on the team who actually care who have to work extra hard at the end to get the deliverables from the ones who are not performing completed. If I can give fair feedback to a boss or teacher by saying-- Person A didn't do anything and failed to complete any of the assigned work-- then I don't feel so bad. I once had a professor who said if you have a team member who doesn't do their share, insert a blank page of paper for whatever they were supposed to do in the project/paper with their name on the top. So if they were supposed to write say the conclusion but didn't do anything, don't do it for them and then just insert a paper. She then asked if you had to distribute 1,000 between the team members who would get paid what-- for that one horrible team member I put, 0.00 and then get fired.

The same applies to commerce. You tax those to death to support people who are also not adding or contributing to society-- those folks will leave and set up shop elsewhere.

At some point, you can't support a populace who is not productive in society by basically taxing the crap out of those who are productive. Granted there are folks who just can't be productive due to disability or even in their latter years of life when they can not longer take care of themselves, but I don't think the answer is to figure out how you support a social system that makes it more appealing to rely on government help versus adding back into the economy through working even a low wage job.
I work a low wage job. I can see why those with families wouldn't want to work low wage jobs. They don't pay nearly enough. Many of my coworkers are working 80-90 hour work weeks just to support their kids with no government assistance. The bad thing about that is, what is going to happen to kids who are pretty much raising themselves because they have no parents?

I truthfully, hate my job. It causes me extreme pain. I am having some back issues that are so severe that I am almost in tears by the end of an 8 hour shift. I have trouble standing in one place for a long time ever since I hurt myself working at Walmart when I was 21. I have to do a 10 hour shift tomorrow and have no idea how I am going to make it. The overtime is mandatory and I need the money. God, I wish I could find a career that had good jobs available because I can't keep hurting like this forever.
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Old 05-13-2012, 02:33 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
4,439 posts, read 5,510,075 times
Reputation: 3395
The thing about the French is that they despise the rich, and would be more than happy to have them leave the country - that's kinda the idea behind that tax proposal - tax them to the point that they almost have no choice but to leave....lol.

While I don't believe some people should be able to chill at the expense of others, unless they're disabled, etc - I really don't see any reason why someone should be working 80 hours a week at a backbreaking job just to provide basic needs for their family while CEO's are able to lounge by the pool every day sipping fancy cocktails. The super-rich DO NOT WORK - they have others to do the work for them, and profiting off the sweat of their labor. That's what the French despise more than anything, and by golly, they're going to remake their nation into a socialist paradise, or die trying....lol. Maybe we here in the US will learn from their example - someday...

In my next life, I'm certainly planning to come back as a Frenchman - as there's no other place on Earth that offers a more humane way of life than France.
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Old 05-13-2012, 02:50 PM
 
Location: NJ
18,665 posts, read 19,934,632 times
Reputation: 7314
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovetheduns View Post
And those countries can't afford it either.

If you look at the heavy entitlement countries like Ireland, France, Greece, Spain, etc-- they are STRUGGLING and their budgets are in shambles. France's new president would like to tax those making more than 1M Euro a year at 75% or higher.

England laughed and said come on rich French, bring your prosperity and businesses over the channel, we will not tax you that high.

Frankly, if I were being taxed upwards of 75%, I would leave. There is no point in my taking on all of the risks of business to keep only a fraction of what I make.

At some point, if you have too many people using entitlements, the pyramid begins to crumble. You can see this in pension plans (too many former workers living off pensions with fewer current employees putting in funds to the pension, social security-- not enough money coming in to sustain the long term viability of the plan).
Excellent post. The only true question is in what order will the very near bankrupt EU nations fail, and are we 2 or 3 decades behind in the same process?
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Old 05-13-2012, 02:54 PM
 
1,148 posts, read 1,680,715 times
Reputation: 1327
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight View Post
The thing about the French is that they despise the rich, and would be more than happy to have them leave the country - that's kinda the idea behind that tax proposal - tax them to the point that they almost have no choice but to leave....lol.

While I don't believe some people should be able to chill at the expense of others, unless they're disabled, etc - I really don't see any reason why someone should be working 80 hours a week at a backbreaking job just to provide basic needs for their family while CEO's are able to lounge by the pool every day sipping fancy cocktails. The super-rich DO NOT WORK - they have others to do the work for them, and profiting off the sweat of their labor. That's what the French despise more than anything, and by golly, they're going to remake their nation into a socialist paradise, or die trying....lol. Maybe we here in the US will learn from their example - someday...

In my next life, I'm certainly planning to come back as a Frenchman - as there's no other place on Earth that offers a more humane way of life than France.
No, I don't think that people should be paid to sit around and do nothing. I am just saying I see why some are reluctant to take low paying jobs because no one wants to support a family working 90 hours a week. I have coworkers who work 3 and 4 jobs just to keep the lights turned on. They don't qualify for assistance because they are "working poor." These are people who did things right. They waited until they were married to have kids and didn't just want to pop out babies for the bennies. Some ended up in abusive relationships and had to escape and are now single parents. If I had money, I would love to help people like my coworkers.

The poor who work often don't qualify for benefits because they work. I have been told that if you work, get married, or are single with no kids then it is nearly impossible to get assistance.
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Old 05-13-2012, 03:25 PM
 
5,500 posts, read 10,500,424 times
Reputation: 2302
Quote:
Originally Posted by redroses777 View Post
No, I don't think that people should be paid to sit around and do nothing. I am just saying I see why some are reluctant to take low paying jobs because no one wants to support a family working 90 hours a week. I have coworkers who work 3 and 4 jobs just to keep the lights turned on. They don't qualify for assistance because they are "working poor." These are people who did things right. They waited until they were married to have kids and didn't just want to pop out babies for the bennies. Some ended up in abusive relationships and had to escape and are now single parents. If I had money, I would love to help people like my coworkers.

The poor who work often don't qualify for benefits because they work. I have been told that if you work, get married, or are single with no kids then it is nearly impossible to get assistance.
The harsh reality is not everyone should have kids if you can't afford it. If your career consist of low wage jobs over 20 years lets say having kids becomes an economical decision instead of an emotional one.
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Old 05-13-2012, 03:31 PM
 
48,505 posts, read 96,675,147 times
Reputation: 18304
Bascially when you have such a safety net with the wealth sharing needed to support it ;many will always endup at the bottom in it. It means more done with less to support more at the bottom;plain and simple.
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Old 05-13-2012, 05:33 PM
 
2,017 posts, read 5,631,228 times
Reputation: 1680
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight View Post
The thing about the French is that they despise the rich, and would be more than happy to have them leave the country - that's kinda the idea behind that tax proposal - tax them to the point that they almost have no choice but to leave....lol.

While I don't believe some people should be able to chill at the expense of others, unless they're disabled, etc - I really don't see any reason why someone should be working 80 hours a week at a backbreaking job just to provide basic needs for their family while CEO's are able to lounge by the pool every day sipping fancy cocktails. The super-rich DO NOT WORK - they have others to do the work for them, and profiting off the sweat of their labor. That's what the French despise more than anything, and by golly, they're going to remake their nation into a socialist paradise, or die trying....lol. Maybe we here in the US will learn from their example - someday...

In my next life, I'm certainly planning to come back as a Frenchman - as there's no other place on Earth that offers a more humane way of life than France.
As someone who has lived and worked in France, your statement makes no sense. I'm guessing you are coming up with that pipe dream based on a Tale of Two Cities tv movie or maybe you just finished watching Lea Miserables or something.

Your pipe dream doesn't exist. A welfare state can only exist when there is money to support it. Taxing to death anyone with "wealth" is not going to sustain a welfare state when that tax revenue flees. Of course I suppose when that happens they will then tax the salt of the earth at a much higher rate.
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