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Old 05-17-2012, 03:59 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
29,702 posts, read 24,784,687 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
63 percent of the population is working now, and we are still a net importer by a large margin.

We probably employ more Chinese making stuff bound for the US, then the entire US population put together.
Ok, but are you going to pay $100 for a T-shirt? The textile and clothing industry, by and large, will never come back until they figure out some automated processes to make the items. In that case, thousands of Chinese will loose their jobs, and a fraction of a percent of Americans would have a low paid job to call their own. Labor intensive work like clothing simply cannot be reshored, even if Chinese labor costs increased 100%. For better or worse, we have to move on to making other things.
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Old 05-17-2012, 04:16 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
4,439 posts, read 5,510,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
Ok, but are you going to pay $100 for a T-shirt? The textile and clothing industry, by and large, will never come back until they figure out some automated processes to make the items. In that case, thousands of Chinese will loose their jobs, and a fraction of a percent of Americans would have a low paid job to call their own. Labor intensive work like clothing simply cannot be reshored, even if Chinese labor costs increased 100%. For better or worse, we have to move on to making other things.
I grew up a few miles from a big Hanes mill that made socks, underwear and white t-shirts when I was growing up. We certainly didn't complain about that kind of stuff being too expensive, especially when we got it from the outlet store. So if domestic-made clothing was reasonably priced back then, why would it be so expensive to make now? And I'm sure a lot of it could be automated anyhow.
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Old 05-17-2012, 04:35 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
29,702 posts, read 24,784,687 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight View Post
I grew up a few miles from a big Hanes mill that made socks, underwear and white t-shirts when I was growing up. We certainly didn't complain about that kind of stuff being too expensive, especially when we got it from the outlet store. So if domestic-made clothing was reasonably priced back then, why would it be so expensive to make now? And I'm sure a lot of it could be automated anyhow.
When you figure out how to automate that process, let me know. You would be a billionaire, so get to it! Frankly, the labor elsewhere is cheap enough that most engineers simply wouldn't spend the time trying to figure it out. Yes, it's a missed opportunity and they should be trying harder. Good luck convincing an engineer that you know something they don't.

And the dynamics are totally different today. Inflation has gone sky high, but the price of manufactured consumer goods has actually decreased in most cases. For items like clothing, cheap labor nations is the reason. Adjusted for inflation, the cost of a pair of underwear when you grew up was likely many times what it is today. People didn't have a throw away mentality either for that reason.

Quite frankly, I would not mind paying more for a quality pair of boxer shorts. The elastic band never lasts very long, and it probably costs most in the long run to keep buying more. For the convenience alone of not having to shop every year for a new package of them, I would gladly pay more. Good luck convincing the American consumer base that boxer shorts costing 3-4X as much might be the better value in the long run.
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Old 05-17-2012, 05:06 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
4,439 posts, read 5,510,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
When you figure out how to automate that process, let me know. You would be a billionaire, so get to it! Frankly, the labor elsewhere is cheap enough that most engineers simply wouldn't spend the time trying to figure it out. Yes, it's a missed opportunity and they should be trying harder. Good luck convincing an engineer that you know something they don't.

And the dynamics are totally different today. Inflation has gone sky high, but the price of manufactured consumer goods has actually decreased in most cases. For items like clothing, cheap labor nations is the reason. Adjusted for inflation, the cost of a pair of underwear when you grew up was likely many times what it is today. People didn't have a throw away mentality either for that reason.

Quite frankly, I would not mind paying more for a quality pair of boxer shorts. The elastic band never lasts very long, and it probably costs most in the long run to keep buying more. For the convenience alone of not having to shop every year for a new package of them, I would gladly pay more. Good luck convincing the American consumer base that boxer shorts costing 3-4X as much might be the better value in the long run.
I still don't see how it'd be that difficult to automate clothing manufacturing - you'd just need some nimble robots and lots of computing power, and you'd be set.

It's been one of my fantasies for a while now that the low-wage nations put a sudden stop to exporting goods to the US, leaving us to our own devices to make what we need. How would we fare as a nation? Pick up where we left off 30 years ago? Or would we just sit around helplessly as goods become ever-more scarce? As many clothes that are floating around in the US today, we could probably go five years before it gets to be a real problem, although a lot of people would be wearing outdated clothing....lol. But I would imagine we could ramp up to full domestic production in about 2 years, and we certainly have the labor to put back to work doing that, as well as the physical plants, etc (like the one in my hometown, which still has the outlet store attached to it...lol.)
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Old 05-17-2012, 06:10 PM
 
Location: NJ
18,665 posts, read 19,936,526 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight View Post
I grew up a few miles from a big Hanes mill that made socks, underwear and white t-shirts when I was growing up. We certainly didn't complain about that kind of stuff being too expensive, especially when we got it from the outlet store. So if domestic-made clothing was reasonably priced back then, why would it be so expensive to make now? And I'm sure a lot of it could be automated anyhow.
DUH! 30 years ago, Health Insurance covered hospital visits, not checkups, nor prescriptions. It cost LESS than employer FICA at the time, and factory wages were miniscule. An uncle made shirts post WWII to the 70s, never made $300 gross per week.

Now Health Insurance covers far more, we have stuff like MRIs which cost MILLIONS per machine, and thousands per scan, and the shirt job with gross pay plus benefits would cost close to $80k with benefits.

You are out of touch with the cost of an employee in 2012, they are not viewed by their net pay, but by their full cost with benefits.

China will lose this business as their labor cost rises-but to neighbors.

Move on.
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Old 05-17-2012, 06:35 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
29,702 posts, read 24,784,687 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight View Post
I still don't see how it'd be that difficult to automate clothing manufacturing - you'd just need some nimble robots and lots of computing power, and you'd be set.

Sounds so simple? Give it a shot. Some have tried, and they all have failed. What has been discovered is the mounting challenges involved when trying to automate this process. Isolating the challenges is the 1st step towards success in manufacturing, but often the easiest step. Robots are great for many thing. But the bugs have to be worked out 1st. And it doesn't stop with the robots. You must build a wide variety of different fixtures to properly hold the cloths through the various steps. You would need a coordinated effort on the part of a wide variety of different sources, all of which would be very expensive initially. There is simply not enough money today in textile work to garner any interest or investment $$$. Considering the large expense one must undertake, the low profit margin potential, and the relatively long period of time it would take to see a sizable ROI, Wallstreet would have no stomach for such a business plan. There is money in what you are suggesting. Potentially a lot of money. Wallstreet wants immediate gains, they have no interest in what's best for America tomorrow, or long term viability even. Yes, it's sad, but this is not the same America of 50 years ago. We don't like challenges anymore, and will avoid them if possible.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight View Post
It's been one of my fantasies for a while now that the low-wage nations put a sudden stop to exporting goods to the US, leaving us to our own devices to make what we need. How would we fare as a nation? Pick up where we left off 30 years ago? Or would we just sit around helplessly as goods become ever-more scarce? As many clothes that are floating around in the US today, we could probably go five years before it gets to be a real problem, although a lot of people would be wearing outdated clothing....lol. But I would imagine we could ramp up to full domestic production in about 2 years, and we certainly have the labor to put back to work doing that, as well as the physical plants, etc (like the one in my hometown, which still has the outlet store attached to it...lol.)
We can still be that nation, except it won't bring 25% of the workforce back into manufacturing. We produce more than we did 30 years ago, with around 8% of the workforce in manufacturing. For most production work, automation is the only way to compete with slave wage nations. We can do it very well here, as we are still the number 1 manufacturing power in the world. That simply doesn't translate into better employment numbers or even better wages. I believe manufacturing wages in this country average to around $18/hr. Many above, many below. Workers can produce 1000% more than they did 30 years ago, but what happens is the customer receives the benefit in the way of savings on the cost of the manufactured goods. If the owner tried to be the nice guy and give every worker a 20% raise, the customer would go elsewhere. That's just the way it is.

I have worked production before. It sucks. It's repetitive, boring, and the jobs in many places are dumbed down to where any nitwit can perform the job. Even the good jobs tend to be very taxing on one's job satisfaction. Those jobs are also what has seen a big decline in my opinion. Mainly because technology has reduced the needs of workers, thus reducing employment potential. It's business as usual, and it's up to the worker to decide their career accordingly. Learn how to be the guy or gal writing the programs, making the tools/fixtures/prototypes or even designing and building the technology, and manufacturing can still be a great career. It's the way it has always been in manufacturing though, nothing has changed. Bringing back a few textile jobs will not change the structure of the field, and won't make America a considerably better place for most.
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Old 05-17-2012, 06:52 PM
 
5 posts, read 6,443 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight View Post
So why does the United States have to be part of the "global economy"?? I've been saying for years that we really need to become an isolationist country like we were in the past - it served us well then, and it'll certainly serve us well now. Slap some big, gnarly tariffs up, and use those savings to drop domestic corporate taxes to zero - yes, zero. Make it horrendously costly to import products AND profits from overseas, and at the same time, make it a total gravy train to do business on American soil.

And to correct the imbalance of labor and supply, the obvious thing to do is to shorten the work week, so more people can get back to to work. I say take it down in stages, like 38 hours, then 36, working our way down to 32 hours. Then make anything over 40 hours double pay, to force companies to hire more people instead of piling on the overtime.

Of course, another solution to "globalism" is to fight another World War. We may yet come to that, but I'd rather try the more sensible options first before we go around wiping out half the planet's population.

So, we should not be free to purchase where we want to? Should we be forbidden by Big Brother from purchasing superior products from other countries? Oops! There goes the Japanese or Korean flatscreen TV in the union halll. Companies should be forced to market their product only in USA? Who gets to decide this? The Republicans and Democrats? A Czar? Should we just dump the Constitution and go with something that more resembles Cuba?

I was a Teamster for ten years and an independent trucker for twelve years. Union shops are a nightmare to deal with. Lazy, insolent workers who will not unload your truck carrying their product to keep them in donuts and coffee...after you've been driving all night so that they have the materials to do their job during the brief intervals between breaks when they actually might work!

Towards the end of my trucking career (my choice), I refused to deliver to UAW union plants. I made more money with less work and stress by staying in the south and west and dealing with mostly non-union shops. Odd thing, too: The workers in the non-union plants seemed more pleasant, even happier, than the grumbling, overweight, drunk auto workers who you either had to bribe or threaten to get them to do their job.

Public sector unions were even worse. Cops, firemen, goverment workers of all stripes are not only lazy, they feel entitled to your worship, too. Especially after 9-11.

Go Libertarian. Privatize everything except the military and the sectors that are expressly provided for in the Constitution. Prices on everything would drop with the competition. Then the amount of per hour pay would not matter because the economy would be such that wages and prices would find their natural balance. Yes, there would be risks, I know. No Nanny State to sell your soul to for percieved protection from evil private companies. You'd have to use your own judgement and sovreignty to decide which companies you will support. Personally, I'd patronize the companies that provided the best service or product and we're community concientious. My dollars (and yours) would be the incentive to be good corporations.

Oh, well. I guess it's easier to resrict everyone's behavior and choices.
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Old 05-17-2012, 06:57 PM
 
134 posts, read 366,958 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post

We can still be that nation, except it won't bring 25% of the workforce back into manufacturing. We produce more than we did 30 years ago, with around 8% of the workforce in manufacturing. For most production work, automation is the only way to compete with slave wage nations. We can do it very well here, as we are still the number 1 manufacturing power in the world.
Not anymore, not since last year actually.
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Old 05-17-2012, 07:00 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
29,702 posts, read 24,784,687 times
Reputation: 28391
Quote:
Originally Posted by MooseGuy1 View Post
Go Libertarian. Privatize everything except the military and the sectors that are expressly provided for in the Constitution. Prices on everything would drop with the competition. Then the amount of per hour pay would not matter because the economy would be such that wages and prices would find their natural balance. Yes, there would be risks, I know. No Nanny State to sell your soul to for percieved protection from evil private companies. You'd have to use your own judgement and sovreignty to decide which companies you will support. Personally, I'd patronize the companies that provided the best service or product and we're community concientious. My dollars (and yours) would be the incentive to be good corporations.

Oh, well. I guess it's easier to resrict everyone's behavior and choices.
In a free market, labor has the right to organize. Frankly, it's nothing compared to mega conglomerate corporations that can borderline monopolies. And yes, UAW general labor folks are about as bad as it gets. They would be crushed in the typical non union setting. Can't say I wouldn't chuckle a bit. UAW unskilled labor has every opportunity that unskilled labor in any other plant does not. They have the opportunity to earn skillsets, on the employer's dime. If they choose not to advance their careers, and instead choose a life of pot smoking and alcoholism, my heart won't bleed for them when they get smacked by the real world.
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Old 05-17-2012, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
29,702 posts, read 24,784,687 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arc212 View Post
Not anymore, not since last year actually.
What is this a reference to exactly? Percentage of employment or our standing on the global scale?
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