Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I think people should do what they feel is best. But at the end of the day, unless we want to start a commune (joking) or some twist of fate (lottery!), we all have to work.
I whole-heartedly agree with wanderlust. There's a lot that's wrong with how employers operate. Unfortunately, they can afford to be scrupulous because they have the jobs. Given that human capital is now a global force more than ever, if you aren't willing to mold to their standards or work for what they believe you're worth--they'll gladly find someone who will. It's that simple.
Pretty much. What these employers need to realize though, is that recessions are cyclical and when things turn around( in whatever form), people are going to have long memories when it comes to how some employers have conducted themselves and leave at the first opportunity.
Greg, I agree with you. My job is so damn boring, I can't stand it. They have tried to give me MORE work, but it's boring work. I'm in an office and all I do is stare at numbers all day. Plus, the office politics here, the people and the low morale don't help. Too many people are worried about what others are doing or not doing instead of worrying about themselves. These people claim to be so busy, so how do they pay attention to what others are doing?
And it never ceases to amaze me as to how people can criticize someone for taking days off of work when they have the damn time to take! We get 9 days a year to use as sick, personal, or whatever. Plus, we get vacation time. Well, I'm sure as hell going to take my 9 PTO days because otherwise you lose them. And whether I call in sick or ask for them in advance, what does it matter?
I'm so sick of working for corporate America. If I could turn back time, I would have done something I truly love and not be so concerned about the pay.
I have started my own company, it is showing positive signs. I don't want stuff, I prefer substance and passion for what I do. My point, which you are apparently missing, is that people are realizing how much of a slave they are to making others wealthy whilst they continue to scrape by worrying everyday about not only stuff, but about having stuff next week. This is a classic example of how people who are so programmed by the corporate workplace can't seem to open their minds enough to see there are better ways to live. Does that make sense?
I agree with this I just worry about going broke or not having money for retirement. I have done the independent contractor thing. I have done trading stocks, but I still worry about making money at a fast rate.
Pretty much. What these employers need to realize though, is that recessions are cyclical and when things turn around( in whatever form), people are going to have long memories when it comes to how some employers have conducted themselves and leave at the first opportunity.
Do you really think they care? You're fooling yourself. They'll just pay what they have to to replace people.
What I'm trying to figure out is what's so bad about employers expecting things like showing up on time and working your shift. And why people think they should pay for this...when they're paying you to be there.
Your talent/employer's market argument fails and crashes and burns for the same reason that Ivory's does.
Yes... Because you disagree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderlust76
Not all companies pay the same for the same job so you can't say whoever is being paid the least is being paid that due to lack of talent.
Not all companies have the same overhead, outstanding loans, marketshare, reputation, building rent, and everything else that effects the balance sheet. If my business is financed and I have to pay back 6% on a loan, while another business has the same loan but has to pay 4%, who can better afford to pay more to the worker? If my company tends to take work that most of the competition can do, that will bring more potential competitors/bidders to the arena. This will drive down the potential profit margin on the work I take on. Can I afford to pay 20% more per worker of the same caliber if the profit margin per job is on the lower end of the scale? Not if the customer decides to get the work done down the street. At the same time, if my business is known for doing more challenging work that other potential competitors don't excel at, I have the potential to squeeze more out of the customer and pay my workers more generously. This also allows me to obtain the "creme de la creme".
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderlust76
The talent and employer's market argument only holds water if all employers paid exactly the same for everything across the board. Next please, all too easy.
Labor is a commodity like any other. Just like the gas you pump in your car, there is always a general range in which the price sits. With regards to a business, you can only pay so much before you erase your profit margin, and you can only offer so little before you cannot bring workers through the door, or acquire the worker capable of doing the work. I suggest you invest in a semester of econ 101 for a general description of supply and demand. It workers for everything we buy, including a worker's time.
Now, if you would like to whine about it, I would agree that I don't like the prospects of my time being worth less in the future. With such a backlog of unemployed workers, this will continue to drag wages down. Supply and demand. If you would like to blame the big bad bizness man, that's where you play the fool. Most of these small businesses are doing everything to stay alive, because consumption is in the crapper, and the customer is always going to gravitate towards the best value. Some businesses will attract this customer by paying less for their workers. Many who are just trying to live to see tomorrow are in just as much despair as the average worker. Small businesses are the greatest driver of our economy. When they hurt, you will hurt just the same. Please keep in mind, "corporate America" is not a reflection of the average business. Just the same, they have been reporting some rather dismal earnings as well, so maybe things are catching up to them once again.
Guess that means you will have to think about cutting the cable, skipping the Starbucks, cooking more often instead of dining out... Readjust the balance sheet just the same as many businesses have been doing these past few years. Nothing says workers have to get a raise on any regular basis. That is done to retain workers. When you can't find a better offer for your time, what's the point? You're a commodity. Don't like it? Find someone to pay you more, or start your own business if you think that's some kind of picnic. Whining on a forum is a good past time, but it does not hold the answer to your problems.
50 hours a week for 30 years is a few total years of the life you only have one of on this earth you cannot get back. if you also happen to hate your job to the point it effects your health you are shortening your life. if any means to go around that is presented I don't see why someone would be faulted for taking it...
Pretty much. What these employers need to realize though, is that recessions are cyclical and when things turn around( in whatever form), people are going to have long memories when it comes to how some employers have conducted themselves and leave at the first opportunity.
*high fives Greg1977*
Can't this day come any sooner?
Good points andywire, there's enough struggle out there for small businesses and for workers.
Not all companies have the same overhead, outstanding loans, marketshare, reputation, building rent, and everything else that effects the balance sheet. If my business is financed and I have to pay back 6% on a loan, while another business has the same loan but has to pay 4%, who can better afford to pay more to the worker? If my company tends to take work that most of the competition can do, that will bring more potential competitors/bidders to the arena. This will drive down the potential profit margin on the work I take on. Can I afford to pay 20% more per worker of the same caliber if the profit margin per job is on the lower end of the scale? Not if the customer decides to get the work done down the street. At the same time, if my business is known for doing more challenging work that other potential competitors don't excel at, I have the potential to squeeze more out of the customer and pay my workers more generously. This also allows me to obtain the "creme de la creme".
Labor is a commodity like any other. Just like the gas you pump in your car, there is always a general range in which the price sits. With regards to a business, you can only pay so much before you erase your profit margin, and you can only offer so little before you cannot bring workers through the door, or acquire the worker capable of doing the work. I suggest you invest in a semester of econ 101 for a general description of supply and demand. It workers for everything we buy, including a worker's time.
Now, if you would like to whine about it, I would agree that I don't like the prospects of my time being worth less in the future. With such a backlog of unemployed workers, this will continue to drag wages down. Supply and demand. If you would like to blame the big bad bizness man, that's where you play the fool. Most of these small businesses are doing everything to stay alive, because consumption is in the crapper, and the customer is always going to gravitate towards the best value. Some businesses will attract this customer by paying less for their workers. Many who are just trying to live to see tomorrow are in just as much despair as the average worker. Small businesses are the greatest driver of our economy. When they hurt, you will hurt just the same. Please keep in mind, "corporate America" is not a reflection of the average business. Just the same, they have been reporting some rather dismal earnings as well, so maybe things are catching up to them once again.
Guess that means you will have to think about cutting the cable, skipping the Starbucks, cooking more often instead of dining out... Readjust the balance sheet just the same as many businesses have been doing these past few years. Nothing says workers have to get a raise on any regular basis. That is done to retain workers. When you can't find a better offer for your time, what's the point? You're a commodity. Don't like it? Find someone to pay you more, or start your own business if you think that's some kind of picnic. Whining on a forum is a good past time, but it does not hold the answer to your problems.
Your long winded filibuster replies prove nothing and you're still wrong. Also...where am I whining? I have shattered you and Ivory's points more than once. You both keep avoiding numerous ones that I have made and just go on and on with your preaching about how the workers are a commodity and pay is pay blah blah blah.
You both keep trying to tell people hat all companies are perfect, hold all the power, and that you should bow down to them. I already said what I do I quit a lame company and moved on to a better one. Your problem is you think whatever company you work for owns you. Sad.
PAY IS NOT JUST PAY since all companies pay differently and handle their raises differently. There is no reason to stay with a company unless it's worth it. Also you both still fail to realize how pay structure is handled it is not the same at all companies. This is further complicated when a company brings in staffing agencies. You probably still miss the point though since you are on your soapbox preaching your commodity nonsense.
Do you really think they care? You're fooling yourself. They'll just pay what they have to to replace people.
What I'm trying to figure out is what's so bad about employers expecting things like showing up on time and working your shift. And why people think they should pay for this...when they're paying you to be there.
Why do you think some companies fail? You're fooling yourself as usual. Plenty of companies have a problem retaining talent and losing talent to their competitors. Quit acting like all companies are ran right. Some companies are in the red and some are in the black. Some can pay more for good people and some are ran better and are better at filtering out the true dead weight. This is what you still don't get.
What I'm trying to figure out is what's so bad about employers expecting things like showing up on time and working your shift. And why people think they should pay for this...when they're paying you to be there.
I don't think anyone is arguing that point. I see people questioning whether there is another way to live, eat and thrive other than becoming a slave to the system. I don't see anyone talking about getting a "job" and then trying to buck the system in place but rather finding a place outside the 9-5 or 24/7 shift corporate system and I don't see anyone looking to be welfare kings or queens in this thread.
From my perch there are ways to stay free of the corporate grind. Working for non-profits. Foreign service like the Peace Corps. Care-taking of estates. Owning a business. Live in help. For the talented: music, dance, acting performance or sports. Invent and patent something important. Buy some land and start a small farm. Get a professional degree and like the attorney that weighed in earlier, open a private practice. Write children's books or a novel. Become an independent photographer. There are other non-traditional occupations or approaches out there. I've done two since retirement and working on the third. Both were satisfying, hard work but autonomous for the most part.
Why do we continue to work our hearts out for such little return? Life-balance seems to be compromised in many companies. Everyone seems to be putting money and STUFF before everything else.
Above is a quote from the OP. I can't for the life of me understand why people would get so wrapped around the axle about someone questioning the modern societal construct even if one doesn't get it. It's healthy and appropriate to examine one's life, getting to know one's self and finding the niche in life that actually fits. It could happen at any time in one's life but to happen early in life is a gift that will keep on giving. IMO the voluminous posts that accuse questioners of their motives, calling or implying laziness or irresponsibility say more about the authors' dissatisfaction with their own situations rather than any universal truths. I sincerely believe that there are some here that do. not. get. it. It's not worth fighting over. If they don't see it, they don't and won't.
To the questioners, rent an old movie called Office Space, laugh over and get the lessons it provides. It didn't get to be a cult classic without a good reason. Best of luck to you young (and not so young) looking for a supportable niche in life.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
And why people think they should pay for this...when they're paying you to be there.
