What's a good argument to your boss if you're struggling with your start time?

[Violett]

Originally Posted by thebunny

We have all read it. You have just decided that the fact that no one is telling you that you have great points means we did not read it. We read it. You don't have good points. And, if those are the points you are going to bring to your boss, you will get the same reaction from the boss as you are here. Just because you seem to think you have points doesn't mean that you do.

You are doing a great job of refusing to heart what is being said because you are not hearing what you want to hear. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is wrong.

See, we're talking over each other here.

I'm saying, "I don't care if you think my points are bad. I don't. What I'm looking for is a way to state the points I've made in a coherent manner. Also, I'm looking for other reasons that I mayn't have thought about, like the shift deferential".

You're saying, "I don't think you have good points". But, I'm not asking for your opinion on whether my points are good, but rather, how to frame the points I've already made plus possible other points. You're in HR, so you could try to be helpful. And I kinda don't believe you when you say you can't think of anything. But, it's ok. Clearly, you're under no obligation to help me. And you're right. I'm not going to listen to you when you tell me my points are bad. lol. So, no worries about continuing to tell me that.

I mean, if you wanted to be helpful, you could explain the processes in which a person goes about getting disability accommodations for a mental (non-physical) disorder in your company, which may be a head's up as to how they might do it in my company. That's WHY you're in HR, correct? To help others? Isn't being helpful something you naturally enjoy doing?

[jdm2008]

Originally Posted by thebunny

An undiagnosed medical condition means nothing. And, I am in HR...so I know this. There is a huge difference between OP's condition, which is not supported by ANY medical documentation and the one you mention. And yes, employers do make accommodations, but only when there is an actual diagnosed condition.

This is false, if you read more carefully you would know this.

[I_Love_LI_but]

Originally Posted by Violett

They probably would have to accommodate it if I went through the process of getting it registered as a disability, which I why I asked you all if I had a good argument against those hours without having to mention my sleep disorder.

I'm not sure exactly how the process works, but I think I would have to go through HR and most likely see a sleep specialist to write me letter. And if that's what I have to do, then I will do it, but I was hoping I could get this problem solved without causing a big fuss and going through all that. Even though it's necessary, I would feel weird getting special treatment from my job because of my sleep disorder. I wouldn't want my coworkers or bosses to resent me because of it.

The reason they're changing my hours (overall) is due to health care reform. It used to be that hospitals could charge whatever prices they wanted and insurance would pay it. This is where we got $5 bandaids, and $3 for an aspirin. Obviously, those prices are ridiculous and needed to be changed.

Secondly, insurance is putting a price cap on certain procedures and a cap on how many times an illness can be treated. Generally now the insurance will pay for a month's worth, or procedure's worth, of treatment. If that doesn't fix the problem then the hospital has to do the next procedure or treatment pro bono.

Thirdly, people are having less babies and going in for less surgeries than they used to, and that was my hospital's bread and butter.

Overall, the hospital I'm working for is losing money. Because of this, they're restricting use of PRNs (or temporary employees) that fill in when someone is sick. Instead, they're trying to use full-time employees to cover shifts. That means the full-time employees like me have to do extra work, which I really don't mind, other than the crazy schedule they're going to ask me to take on.

I work in a building that runs a clinic. The clinic historically has been separate from the patient-work that I do, we just happened to share a building. But now, because we're restricting the use of temp employees, they're asking me to change my hours so that I can pitch in over at the clinic when needed, which is completely reasonable, but not with the schedule they're asking of me, imo.

The daytime clinic is open 8am-4pm, and I and one other coworker run a separate clinic at night in the same building from 4pm-9pm three days a week. I have third coworker who runs the clinic for our side of the building during the day, from 8:30am-6:30pm.

What they really want is for all of us to be in the clinic when the patients are there during the day. However, there are rarely more than 5 patients in our clinic during the day at any given time, and they already have staff to cover them. They want me there in case of an emergency or in case someone needs to take a vacation. I offered to flex my hours, and to make myself available if someone needed vacation, but that otherwise I would keep the schedule I have now.

I think what they want most is for someone to be available on Fridays. Myself and the two other workers who work on my side all have Fridays off. One of my coworkers and I came up with a schedule where we would alternate Fridays, so they're would always be at least one of us there, but I think they're going to turn down that solution. I don't mind pitching in, but it makes no sense to me to have both my coworker and myself come in on Fridays "just in case" something happens and they need to use us.

Part of the reason they want to move us to a schedule is so that "we're more in the building when the Day Patients are" and so that there's no idle time and so we're being productive, but if my other coworker and I are coming in just to sit there "in case of emergency", that makes no sense to me. They're just paying us to do nothing at that point. It makes much more sense to me to have only one of us be there and for us to flex our hours and make ourselves available if someone needs time off, rather than have us just sitting there "in case".

Maybe that suggestion will work. At least try it.

Or why can't one of the others do the 8 am start 5 days a week and you do the 1 pm start 5 days a week? Why does anybody have to do such a mixed schedule anyway? If someone doesn't have a sleep disorder it could very well lead to one. Is there a reason your employer insists on such a hodgepodge instead of simply assigning steady hours to individuals, like one does day shift, one does second shift, etc.?

What significantly weakens your argument on the previously unclaimed and undiagnosed (to your employer) sleep disorder causing an inability to tolerate waking up early on the mixed schedule is you are already successfully doing it one day in the middle of the week PLUS you are now doing it while working longer workdays because of the 4 day schedule.

I would also be wary of asking for disability accommodations in order to attempt to preserve a 4 day workweek for yourself against the company's staffing needs. Yes, they cannot discriminate and fire your for this request. However, employers, their HR, and their attorneys have made it an artform of managing out or laying off employees for "other" legal reasons to get rid of the nuisance and they routinely get away with it. The world is not fair.

[Violett]

Originally Posted by I_Love_LI_but

Maybe that suggestion will work. At least try it.

Or why can't one of the others do the 8 am start 5 days a week and you do the 1 pm start 5 days a week? Why does anybody have to do such a mixed schedule anyway? If someone doesn't have a sleep disorder it could very well lead to one. Is there a reason your employer insists on such a hodgepodge instead of simply assigning steady hours to individuals, like one does day shift, one does second shift, etc.?

Part of the reason they want to move us to a schedule is so that "we're more in the building when the Day Patients are" and so that there's no idle time and so we're being productive, but if my other coworker and I are coming in just to sit there "in case of emergency", that makes no sense to me.

And I agree with your point. They're just paying us to do nothing. It makes much more sense to me to have only one of us be there and for us to flex our hours and make ourselves available if someone needs time off, rather than have us just sitting there "in case". But for whatever reason, they want us both in the building.

Originally Posted by I_Love_LI_but

What significantly weakens your argument on the previously unclaimed and undiagnosed (to your employer) sleep disorder causing an inability to tolerate waking up early on the mixed schedule is you are already successfully doing it one day in the middle of the week PLUS you are now doing it while working longer workdays because of the 4 day schedule.

I would also be wary of asking for disability accommodations in order to attempt to preserve a 4 day workweek for yourself against the company's staffing needs. Yes, they cannot discriminate and fire your for this request. However, employers, their HR, and their attorneys have made it an artform of managing out or laying off employees for "other" legal reasons to get rid of the nuisance and they routinely get away with it. The world is not fair.

I've actually brought my sleep disorder up to my direct boss, and I'm not working those hours successfully. My boss has mentioned that I'm much more productive in the afternoon and I hide in my office on the days where I have to get up early. She has a disability herself, so she's probably more sympathetic than most bosses would be.

I realize that they may want to push me out once I attempt to get accommodations, but I really won't be there for long if they make me work that schedule anyway, because I won't be able to handle it. So either I try to get accommodations and they let me for a little while and then fire me, or they don't give me accommodations and I leave on my own. So I figure why not try, since the outcome is likely going to be the same.

[Three Wolves In Snow]

Originally Posted by Violett

I have been tested and formally diagnosed by a psychiatrist when I was going to grad school. Unfortunately, I didn't have the presence of mind to get anything written down, so now of course I can't prove it, so I'll have to go through the process again if I want to get something official for work.

I've had this disorder since I was a little kid, and nothing helps. I don't have any problems getting to sleep or staying asleep and my sleep is restful. No matter what I do, tho, I can't fall asleep until around 2am or 3am, and even if I turn off all the lights and just lay in bed in the dark, I stay awake until about 2 or 3.

Even on the few random nights where I'm dead tired and fall asleep at 11pm, I can sleep until 12 or 1pm if left to my own devices. I had jobs where I worked a "normal" 8-5pm schedule and nothing helped. My body still wanted to stay awake until 2 and hated me when I had to wake up for work. And if I do fall asleep at 11 and wake up at 8 or earlier, I'm still a zombie until about 2pm or 3pm which is when my body wakes up. It's gotten worse as I've gotten older. Now when I have to wake up "early", I'm a zombie all day until I get home and take a 7 hour "nap", where I wake up at 12am lol.

I'm sorry, I don't believe that is a sleeping disorder. That sounds exactly like me. I cannot function in the morning, I'm NOT a morning person! Growl! And it doesn't matter how tired I am, I cannot fall asleep until around 1 or 2am. Always been like that. That's not a disorder, per say, it's how you are wired. Some people are morning people, some of us are night people...and we either find night time jobs or we suck it up and deal with the horrid morning shifts or crappy schedules. This is a sleeping PREFERENCE.

Originally Posted by Violett

See, we're talking over each other here.

I'm saying, "I don't care if you think my points are bad. I don't. What I'm looking for is a way to state the points I've made in a coherent manner. Also, I'm looking for other reasons that I mayn't have thought about, like the shift deferential".

I don't usually agree with bunny when it comes to things like this but she is right. And what you are missing when she's responding to you is that the reason she is unable to come up with a coherent way to discuss this is because there is no way. What you are asking for is special treatment. You can ask, but you probably won't get it. And they will remember it.

To me it seems more that you're upset you no longer get three days off a week. I can understand that, I'd hate that too! I'd much prefer to work a longer day during the week and have more time off. But that's not the new schedule and asking to basically twist it all up and around and sideways to accommodate you is probably not going to go over well.

Originally Posted by Violett

Part of the reason they want to move us to a schedule is so that "we're more in the building when the Day Patients are" and so that there's no idle time and so we're being productive, but if my other coworker and I are coming in just to sit there "in case of emergency", that makes no sense to me.

A LOT of things that employers do make zero sense to me. It makes no sense to me whatsofrickenEVER that the people who work the nigh tshift (not yours, mine), who do two and a half hours of work and then sit around the other 10 hours get paid a fricken dollar more than the rest of us. We do all the damn work in the day time, they get more pay!?!?!!? Because it's night time? So. What! That makes no sense to me!

Guess what? It doesn't have to make sense to you. You're not the one making the decisions. If that is what they want, that is what they want and they will get it, one way or another.

And I agree with your point. They're just paying us to do nothing. It makes much more sense to me to have only one of us be there and for us to flex our hours and make ourselves available if someone needs time off, rather than have us just sitting there "in case". But for whatever reason, they want us both in the building.

They have a reason that they want you there. You don't have to understand it, it's their reason. It's not like they fell off of the turnip truck and decided this on the spur of the moment. You can bet there was considerable time spent creating this schedule to make sure everything is covered.

In the end, "I'm tired, I don't get enough sleep, I don't have as much time to do errands" is not a valid excuse to change up an entire schedule for one person.

I've actually brought my sleep disorder up to my direct boss, and I'm not working those hours successfully. My boss has mentioned that I'm much more productive in the afternoon and I hide in my office on the days where I have to get up early. She has a disability herself, so she's probably more sympathetic than most bosses would be.

Again, no, I don't buy that is a disorder. You are just a night person. I am also more productive in the afternoon and evenings...but can you imagine if I requested that every single job I've ever held change everything just to accommodate me? That isn't how it works. You can deal with the schedule or you can find a new place to work with a schedule that works better for you.

I realize that they may want to push me out once I attempt to get accommodations, but I really won't be there for long if they make me work that schedule anyway, because I won't be able to handle it. So either I try to get accommodations and they let me for a little while and then fire me, or they don't give me accommodations and I leave on my own. So I figure why not try, since the outcome is likely going to be the same.

No, it doesn't hurt to try. But you said that you "LOVE" your job. Are you seriously stating that you cannot possibly find a way to make this work? You're going to risk this job because you don't get a third day off a week anymore?

[Violett]

So my work is changing everyone to a 5 day per week schedule, but they're going to work with me on my start time so that I don't have to come in super early on the days I work late