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Old 09-14-2013, 03:43 PM
 
24,488 posts, read 40,997,192 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wooliemonster View Post
Allow remote. I would never move to SC.
That's the other thing. You're not going to find the same level of programmers in south Carolina as you'll find in Pittsburgh, Portland, NYC metro, silicon valley, etc.
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Old 09-14-2013, 04:08 PM
 
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definitely second the advice from wooliemonster and NJBest, you're gonna have to cast a wider net to draw in talent, and pay accordingly. if you find someone living in NYC remoting in to the job in SC, you'll still have to pay him NYC wages.

that said, in regards to the OP's original question, i think there's a deeper issue at play here. see, languages like c# and java were invented specifically to lower the bar for entry into the field. c, c++, lisp etc all require a deeper understanding of CS concepts, and both c# and java enable ppl with even a very rudimentary/crappy grasp of CS to start coding quickly and contributing. in general, the "web developers" you find today mostly aren't equipped with the kind of chops you need to write seriously cutting edge libraries, but notice that both of these languages come with a massive set of libraries which enables a situation where you only need a small number of really competent coders writing the complex stuff, with the lesser programmers building glue code and in-house IT applications, "web apps" etc etc on top.

so over time, as more and more schools started training their students with these as first languages, these kids who then moved on to the field were naturally shielded from the really hard, interesting CS stuff. the topmost CS schools still held out for a while and had their students learning lisp, scheme and such, but the lower tier state schools who churn out ppl destined to be worker bees long ago switched to java and c#.

the situation today is in large part a consequence of the above.
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Old 09-14-2013, 04:12 PM
 
1,351 posts, read 2,890,959 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southbel View Post
So, something to keep in mind is that if you have a client who must maintain an older framework for any reason, the ability to code in these environments is bankable.
definitely very true. even tho java is old and is now facing stiff competition from the newer JVM languages such as scala/clojure/groovy, there's just so much java code out there that will need maintaining and tweaking over the coming years that a pure Java/J2EE guy can still go for at least the next 5+ yrs without having to really pick up the newest stuff. sure, the work will be boring and far from cutting edge, but most IT work happens in-house in companies that just need their systems running, and don't need nor care for the latest whizbang languages and technologies.

at my last job we still had some libraries written in C++ with COM that were being maintained.
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Old 09-14-2013, 05:59 PM
 
Location: Florida
769 posts, read 974,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southbel View Post
I hear ya but my clients need those skills. There was another project I passed on which had a very, very archaic framework. I tell you - if they had found anyone with the skill to code in that environment, that person could have written their own check. So, something to keep in mind is that if you have a client who must maintain an older framework for any reason, the ability to code in these environments is bankable.

If my business model was to simply throw everything away and start from scratch, that would be fine. Sometimes I advocate that to my clients. However, in this day and age, you can't do that for everything.
I am a senior programmer and moved down to charleston area. I was snagged up very quickly into the position I have now. Where I came from they are having a hard time finding seniors also but the problems that have been run into is that the lack of pay.
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Old 09-14-2013, 06:51 PM
 
Location: Wicker Park, Chicago
4,789 posts, read 14,702,100 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmanx View Post
I can tell you, being a young one myself, and working with young ones, we aren't wasting time with old frameworks like .NET and Java, at my current job I'm tasked with getting rid of that mess and using an alternative. Most senior people I know just moved on to management.
What are the new frameworks and technologies worth learning now? I'm very surprised that Java and .Net is already archaic!
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Old 09-14-2013, 07:16 PM
 
Location: Florida
769 posts, read 974,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wooliemonster View Post
Allow remote. I would never move to SC.
Part of the problem with some of the customer's that need this talent is they do not allow for remote work. They need you into the facility due to restrictions. I am not sure about the OP's jobs. Some of the jobs are on government installations and YOU must be onsite.
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Old 09-14-2013, 07:24 PM
 
Location: broke leftist craphole Illizuela
10,326 posts, read 17,339,629 times
Reputation: 20321
There is plenty of good talent out there. If you can't find it the problem is:
1. Payscale
2. Recruiting system (is HR screening out talent? are they jerking candidates around so much they are withdrawing their application? Do they or the computer applicant system know what they are looking for.
3. Excessive Purple Squirrel-ism. Are your criteria so specialized it doesn't exist, companies can only play tug of war for the same pool of aging workers for so long until there ends up being a real shortage.
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Old 09-14-2013, 10:52 PM
 
Location: La Jolla, CA
7,284 posts, read 16,600,795 times
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MSchemist80 hit it. Your pay scale is bad, HR is clueless and is rejecting the best applicants (this is the most prevalent issue in my experience), or your criteria is impossible to find. If you run a railroad, for example, and you want someone with 10+ years of railroad system programming experience along with 10+ years of some completely industry-specific programming tool, or maybe an operator-specific, proprietary programming environment, plus a CS degree, plus some other software package, plus specific OS, plus some certification, then you are **** out of luck, or you are going to be writing the biggest checks you have ever seen, because those people were vacuumed up by other higher paying employers years ago.

The funny thing is, if you go to some professional conferences, there are people who are in their late sixties and early seventies who are still dragging in six figures on some dBASE project or something like that. The people paying them could have easily converted to a different platform for the same price (and easier maintenance) but because the word "full time employee" was uttered, and the notorious Finance/HR duo heard it, the employer instead elected to pay some retiree twice the price to do the same thing, and probably come back for 20 hours a week at $100/hr until they are 90. Whatever.

I have had programming managers tell me that Jim Cubicle is not a great 'coder'. OK, fine. He's not a good coder. His code kind of sucks, but it's readable and functional and he comments it well, so someone can pick it up and maybe clean it up someday. Most importantly, his error rate is one tenth of everyone else's, and he somehow digested a thousand pages of government requirements, married them to company conventions, then, after hours, turned the whole thing into a solution that is more reliable than the sunrise. Where, again, was the problem?
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Old 09-14-2013, 11:47 PM
 
Location: Meggett, SC
11,011 posts, read 10,967,179 times
Reputation: 6189
Let me be clear on a couple of points. It's not a compensation problem. With both my extremely low turnover rate and high acceptance rate when I get the candidates in front of me, I feel confident with the compensation package I offer. I've had employees approached by many other companies and they always stay with me. So, I feel very good about that part of it.

My issue is less having candidates turn me down - it's finding qualified candidates in the first place. My usual criteria for a senior programmer is actually pretty wide. For me, my criteria for a senior programmer is actually pretty broad. This is what I'm usually looking for: C, C++, Java, and/or .NET experience (even just proficient in one of those languages would be good), must be able to work independently, having understanding of Agile development, and have about five years of experience. Ten years ago, this type of candidate was an easy find. Nowadays, it's a drought.

I tend to write out my searches with 'must haves' (the ones I highlighted above) and then will have some nice to haves in there and label them as such. Here's the thing. I get resumes that don't even meet ONE of the must haves. There is a disconnect somewhere obviously. Thus, I have to be doing something wrong whether it be trying to find something that doesn't exist much anymore or not having enough eyes on my ads/searches.

ETA: Some of my projects require certifications but I am happy to pay for and have the employee get those on my dime. Thus, I have not made that a must have criteria. Given my difficulty finding good talent, I didn't want to limit myself too much.
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Old 09-15-2013, 01:06 AM
 
1,351 posts, read 2,890,959 times
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southbel - can you post the job description? i'm a software engineer myself, i'd be interested in at least taking a look. not looking for work atm as i'm already employed, but would like to see what you're looking for (in detail) for a senior role.
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