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Oh without question without the government there would be no labor movement. The government had to step in and say you can't just fire workers for organizing.
I agree with your views about unions.
The government stepped in out of self preservation.
Quite the cheerleader of America going down the tubes, aren't you? What is called the lower middle class in Asia has a pretty NASTY standard of living. You have no idea; cannot imagine, but it is NOTHING like the American lower middle class. Trust me, I've been there and seen the slums some of those lower middle class, including office workers, come out of in the morning. No electricity. Cooking over fires. No walls, living under tarps and tarpaper. People lined up by the 100's for 1 outdoor hand pump that pumps water and 1 filthy outdoor toilet. In Asia, they keep the money very close to the vest of the upper classes and pay the enormous lower class population very, very little. And do it with no shame whatsoever. The profits you drool over will be much smaller than what the corps. are used to with the American middle class they are so happily murdering.
If you would like to be realistic, can you explain how America, a first world nation, is to effectively compete with 3rd world nations where incomes for the majority rarely exceed 4000 USD? How can the American worker compete with nations where workers are used to living multiple generations under one roof? Nations where the young folks save their money so they can support their elders? Nations where economies are centrally planned and the government pays the bills for the businesses, essentially guaranteeing a competitive advantage?
No matter how you put it, the American worker is getting, and will continue to get clobbered.
If you would like to be realistic, can you explain how America, a first world nation, is to effectively compete with 3rd world nations where incomes for the majority rarely exceed 4000 USD? How can the American worker compete with nations where workers are used to living multiple generations under one roof? Nations where the young folks save their money so they can support their elders? Nations where economies are centrally planned and the government pays the bills for the businesses, essentially guaranteeing a competitive advantage?
No matter how you put it, the American worker is getting, and will continue to get clobbered.
We cannot compete on cheap stuff that requires nothing more than 4 working limbs. We are transitioning into a service economy, one where we will need to increase our post secondary education and training. We dropped from #1 to #10 in that critical area.
We will increasingly require fewer people to build stuff, more to manage the logistics of a global business world, more to manage robots who actually will make product.
We have two choices: (1) evolve, or (2) Have a hissy fit because the days of 4 working limbs supporting a family single-handedly are fast ending.
Each will make their own choice, and the good news is, we lack the funds to support those who make an incorrect choice. That should prompt more of us to choose carefully, to plan long-term, our futures, to invest in our minds..our most valuable asset.
We cannot compete on cheap stuff that requires nothing more than 4 working limbs. We are transitioning into a service economy, one where we will need to increase our post secondary education and training. We dropped from #1 to #10 in that critical area.
What services shall we peddle and to whom? This education BS is especially outrageous considering how de-skilled, dumbed down and routinized most of the wage work actually is.
If a brain numbing task A can be mastered by somebody with rudimentary RRR and a pulse and American employers require an associate degree as a minimum to qualify. Where does "comparative" advantage come from?
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We will increasingly require fewer people to build stuff, more to manage the logistics of a global business world, more to manage robots who actually will make product.
Logistics management is far easier and cheaper to automate. Manufacturing automation is very expensive, it takes massive government subsidies and even then it can't compete with cheap labor. Otherwise, how to explain "Made in China" explosion? Managing robots .... you should consider a career in creative writing. Both automation and global business world depend on cheap energy, availability of which is questionable, mildly speaking.
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We have two choices: (1) evolve, or (2) Have a hissy fit because the days of 4 working limbs supporting a family single-handedly are fast ending.
Evolve where? Your ideas about the direction of evolution are absurd and arithmetically impossible.
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Each will make their own choice, and the good news is, we lack the funds to support those who make an incorrect choice. That should prompt more of us to choose carefully, to plan long-term, our futures, to invest in our minds..our most valuable asset.
Everybody turns psychic and/or his own jailer? Looks like your world requires mega tonnes of self-blame (better yet - self-annihilation) to function and to control tens of millions doomed to make wrong choices, regardless of planning.
Try not to skirt around this one very simple question... Can you list one example of a successful serviced based economy? Just one, at any point in time.
Unless you would like to return to strategies of American imperialism (enticing war abroad), America cannot remain a superpower and a service based economy simultaneously. As of now, the economy is achieving putrid growth with trillions of dollars being printed out of thin air. That is not service based or value added. That's isn't even an economic model at all.
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Originally Posted by bobtn
We cannot compete on cheap stuff that requires nothing more than 4 working limbs. We are transitioning into a service economy, one where we will need to increase our post secondary education and training. We dropped from #1 to #10 in that critical area.
Service based... Like flipping the burger? Unfortunately, services are not where the wealth originates. Value added offers the widest margins of all. Profits on services are generally microscopic by comparison. Just look at companies like Walmart, which operates on profit margins of 2-3%.
Value added on the other hand easily sees profit margins around 25% or more. Taking something, and as the name suggests, adding value where there was none before. That is, and will continue to be the foundation for economic growth and development.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobtn
We will increasingly require fewer people to build stuff, more to manage the logistics of a global business world, more to manage robots who actually will make product.
So you expect the Chinese to stay satisfied as our little widget widdling slaves? Did you run that plan by them first? Of course, they will continue to branch out and compete in other areas besides manufacturing. That is simply a stepping stone. They also have a centrally planned economy where corporations do not require profitability to survive because the government provides endless credit. They can essentially compete with U.S. corporations of any sector of the economy. They don't have to be good at what they do, and they don't have to be profitable at it. They simply have to offer their services at a deep enough discount.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobtn
We have two choices: (1) evolve, or (2) Have a hissy fit because the days of 4 working limbs supporting a family single-handedly are fast ending.
We are evolving as best we can. Unfortunately, that can only go so far. Try as you may, you can not change the laws of physics. Just the same, you can only create so many good paying jobs in a "serviced based economy". It doesn't matter how many college graduates you churn out. You can only have so many managers, and they will be grossly outnumbered by their burger flipping counterparts. Even if you gave everyone a college degree, some of them would still be hanging their college degrees over the french fries.
One important difference between "service based" and "value added" is value added historically required higher wages due to the more labor intensive work required. Even without the laborious nature of the work, it is usually boring, where service based can be more engaging. You always had to pay a premium to obtain your required labor, and that helped spur U.S. economic growth. You won't see anything like that in a "service based economy". More likely, you will either stagnate indefinitely (best case scenario), or become a banana republic (most likely outcome).
Of course, all is not lost. We are still manufacturing 1/5th of the world's industrial output. For better or worse, the wealth generated falls into the hands of a select few who control the means to production. By cutting the worker out of the equation, those who command these means also control the bulk of the reward. Heck, corporations don't even need to own the means to production. They simply find someone else to assume the risk and let them bid each other to the grave.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobtn
Each will make their own choice, and the good news is, we lack the funds to support those who make an incorrect choice. That should prompt more of us to choose carefully, to plan long-term, our futures, to invest in our minds..our most valuable asset.
If everyone made the perfect choice 100% of the time in a "service based economy", it wouldn't matter. The world still needs burger flippers. If we are to become a "serviced based economy" the role of the worker will be to simply peddle goods in an environment where other workers are trying to do the same. Nobody is creating anything of worth, and therefore, nobody is generating any sizable wealth. The folks on the top don't mind the low margins because their holdings are massive. 3% of several billions is still impressive. 3% of the profit generated by slinging cheap Chinese goods relegates the individual worker to the poor house.
Another thing about service economy - it preys on depravities of the modern life. You have no free time to do things? You have no family/friends to help (or simply talk to you)? You are perpetually anxious and feeling inadequate? You have no time to have a meal? Your children have no time for old you? You ... are miserable in the hundreds of other ways? There is a special for-profit service just for you. Thus, the only way to run service economy (besides commodification of every aspect of our existence) is to make our lives more and more miserable and deprived. With every added service job index of the social misery increases. And vice verse increasing social misery demands more service jobs.
Two of the most critically realistic postings of the month just posted in this thread...
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Originally Posted by RememberMee
What services shall we peddle and to whom? ... Logistics management is far easier and cheaper to automate. ... Evolve where? Your ideas about the direction of evolution are absurd and arithmetically impossible. ... Looks like your world requires mega tonnes of self-blame (better yet - self-annihilation) to function and to control tens of millions doomed to make wrong choices, regardless of planning.
That's the dirty-little-secret of anti-hybrid-economy perspective: The only way to make their economics work is to "discard" human beings from the system. They dance and dodge and evade and do everything they can to avoid answering the question "What about the people?" because they know that their answer is unequivocally morally offensive.
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Originally Posted by andywire
Try not to skirt around this one very simple question... Can you list one example of a successful serviced based economy? Just one, at any point in time. ... Unfortunately, services are not where the wealth originates. ... So you expect the Chinese to stay satisfied as our little widget widdling slaves? Did you run that plan by them first? Of course, they will continue to branch out and compete in other areas besides manufacturing. That is simply a stepping stone. They also have a centrally planned economy where corporations do not require profitability to survive because the government provides endless credit. They can essentially compete with U.S. corporations of any sector of the economy. They don't have to be good at what they do, and they don't have to be profitable at it. They simply have to offer their services at a deep enough discount. ... By cutting the worker out of the equation, those who command these means also control the bulk of the reward. ... The folks on the top don't mind the low margins because their holdings are massive.
The bit about the Chinese (substitute: Indian, Brazilian, Russian, and eventually more) is really critical: When your competition starts using tools you don't or won't use, you either have to start using the tools they're using (which often means adopting far more of their decisions than you really want to are are capable of adopting) or come up with counter-approaches to their tools - but you cannot do nothing. Not responding to the competition out of some antiquated assumption that we're better and that the new, more effective competition won't affect us is ludicrous.
. Manufacturing automation is very expensive, it takes massive government subsidies and even then it can't compete with cheap labor.
Nonsense, we implement more robots every single year at dozens of US facilities. It always goes seamlessly, and always beats our already very high ROI projections.
We do it with a 100% private corp, and we NEVER borrow money. We fund it via stellar cash flow.
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