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Old 10-04-2013, 11:56 AM
 
Location: Eastern Colorado
3,887 posts, read 5,734,709 times
Reputation: 5386

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
You know I'm right, there are no reasons to snide about it. Some victims of the public education are seriously thinking about the blue collar work goodness and, for whatever weird reason, they may take you seriously.

I could write, and write about my personal anecdotal experiences and encounters but health and longevity of the blue collar work force is an academic subject, people in universities make $ on it (studying blue collar workplace beats most of the blue collar work hands down, who would argue that?).

The researchers found that blue collar workers are much more likely to work past 65 than white collar workers and are much more likely to suffer from conditions like arthritis, reducing their quality of life and work productivity.
Blue Collar Workers Can Look Forward to Working Longer and in Worse Health than their White Collar Bosses | News | Mailman School of Public Health
You ever think that those guys work because they want to? I know several guys in their late 60-early 70s who still work at least part time managing construction projects or working as parts runners or in a lumber yard, specifically because they have no interest in sitting in a chair and waiting to die like some seem to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
Nearly half of construction and mining workers had not visited a dentist in the past year, and 31.5% of transportation employees had high blood pressure, for example. Clerical, office and service workers reported some of the best health, but about 30% said they did not feel safe walking alone at night in their city.
Blue-collar workers top charts for worst employee health
So because someone says they do something means that they do? Also 30% ot feeling safe has what to do with job description? Not to mention that I feel bad for anybody that spends that much time in fear, especially since it is a waste of time most of the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
In interviews during lunch, many of the former autoworkers -- some not yet 60 -- described their hip replacements, foot surgeries, heart bypasses and ripped rotator cuffs. Some ailments evolved through the normal wear and tear of aging, but most were the result of repetitive jobs (that's what blue collar work is all about - performing repetitive monotonous tasks in the less than desirable environment)performed on General Motors' assembly lines
For blue-collar workers, higher retirement age is absurd

The reference list is truly endless, look up for yourself.

You mean someone that does the same job day after day for 30+ years has problems with some of their joints? Let me ask you have you ever heard about ergonomic designs in office chairs ad keyboards? Why is that? Oh I know, because sitting at a desk and typing for 30 years is going to destroy your back and give you arthritis in your hands.



you mean studies paid for by unions and articles the push are all over the place pumping out all this information about how hard life is for the blue collar guys they represent? Do you realize that there are hundreds of jobs that are considered blue collar that does not include standing in a factor for 8-12 hours a day?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
But those are "physical" aspects of the blue collar work. Blue collar work doesn't improve psychological and mental well-being either. We all are human beings, we all seek to have some measure of control over our life (including 8hrs+/week of our life we spend working), we all want to have a say on the things affecting us (like our workplace), we all seek seek appreciation of our efforts, we all want to be valued members of a group. If you want those things (and most people do) - blue collar work doesn't offer anything of that sort, you other do what you are told, exactly how you are told, realize that you are a low life loser who've made some serious mistakes in your life and thus should just shut up and work.

Hurry up to that trade school folks, bosses need you to die younger in as much pain as possible.
Are you serious, you want to feel accomplished in your life and you do not get that from blue collar work, but do from white collar? You may want to crawl into a car with one for a day, have them drive you around and show you all the things they have accomplished, that actually have value for the public, you know like the building the basement you are sitting in, and putting together the bus you ride down to the park they take care of, and the bench they built.

also you may want to read the articles you posted, the life expectancy is not due to the job they are working, but instead due to poor lifestyle choices, like drinking and drug use.

I don't know if your girlfriends continue to run off with blue collar guys or what, but the idea that you are working with these guys is a joke, they would not buy something from someone who so obviously looks down on them from their pedestal, so if you do sale to them I am sure you are broke. Either that or you are trolling which would not surprise me either.

By the way you want to talk about serious mistakes in life, as if everybody in white collar work is clean, that is a joke.
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Old 10-04-2013, 01:00 PM
 
1,923 posts, read 2,405,892 times
Reputation: 1826
A union is a club that only the select few are allowed into, and just like the mafia, there are rules and dues you have to 'pay up'. Unions are not open for anyone to come in and sign up, and get a job. Usually only people with connections or family members are able to get in. This is to prevent a glut of labor and lower wages.

More workers = more selection = lower wages *because they can*

Less workers = less selection = higher wages to attract talent
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Old 10-04-2013, 04:27 PM
Status: "On the road with Kid Charlamagne" (set 16 days ago)
 
8,018 posts, read 5,826,092 times
Reputation: 9672
Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
Problem is, too many young folks went to college. Many didn't have the capacity to graduate, which is why so many ended up dropping out. Don't know if this is a new phenomena, but I blame guidance councilors with their heads up their you know what... I also blame predatory promotion of college to people who don't belong. There's a huge racket going on among the sub par colleges who want warm bodies with easy access to student loans.

Translation: We're heading towards a higher-ed bubble.

You are on the money with your comment.

Clearly, EVERYONE is not cut out for college, and the high school guidance counselors really don't work with the kids closely enough to figure out which borderline kids shouldn't be going.

There are SO many subpar colleges that "getting into and going to college" has become an incredibly watered-down accomplishment. Of course, those schools graduate just about anybody, because if they fail them, they lose that stream of student loan dollars, and that's not a good thing.
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Old 10-04-2013, 04:38 PM
 
Location: Raleigh
13,661 posts, read 12,341,234 times
Reputation: 20109
Quote:
Originally Posted by dazeddude8 View Post
I am guessing that the whole "too many people go to college" started when parents, guidance counselors, family, etc... put the fear of god into the student that "If you don't want to end up working at Shop Rite/Burger King for the rest of your life you better go to college". And surely no high-school student wants Burger King or cashier at CVS to be his life long career, thus whether or not he wants to college, he ends up going to college anyway.

So what results is a situation, a problem in which there are more college grads than job openings for college grads, in most cases-employers wanting very specific degrees even for the entry level stuff and college graduates who end back at CVS anyway because that is all they could find at the time. I imagine that the solution is many fold but emphasizing trades as a viable option is probably part of the solution.

For what it is worth I remember back in High-school that those who gravitated towards trades, had aspirations for trade school instead of college (GASP!) where looked down upon, thought less of etc... This was largely because when I was in school, college ( majoring and graduating in whatever degree you want) was touted as the ticket to the middle class life.
Ironically, a hs acquaintance who started at McD's in high school, now owns one, and isn't 30 yet. To be fair, he might have a 4 yr degree from a local commuter college, but i'm not certain. Also, Vietnam happened, and thus many parents pushed their kids to college in the 60's and it hasn't stopped even though there is no need for a college deferment. And American manufacturing shrunk, so college seems like the safest option to most parents.
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Old 10-04-2013, 04:44 PM
 
Location: Raleigh
13,661 posts, read 12,341,234 times
Reputation: 20109
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
You know I'm right, there are no reasons to snide about it. Some victims of the public education are seriously thinking about the blue collar work goodness and, for whatever weird reason, they may take you seriously.

I could write, and write about my personal anecdotal experiences and encounters but health and longevity of the blue collar work force is an academic subject, people in universities make $ on it (studying blue collar workplace beats most of the blue collar work hands down, who would argue that?).

Blue-collar workers top charts for worst employee health

In interviews during lunch, many of the former autoworkers -- some not yet 60 -- described their hip replacements, foot surgeries, heart bypasses and ripped rotator cuffs. Some ailments evolved through the normal wear and tear of aging, but most were the result of repetitive jobs (that's what blue collar work is all about - performing repetitive monotonous tasks in the less than desirable environment)performed on General Motors' assembly lines
For blue-collar workers, higher retirement age is absurd

The reference list is truly endless, look up for yourself.

But those are "physical" aspects of the blue collar work. Blue collar work doesn't improve psychological and mental well-being either. We all are human beings, we all seek to have some measure of control over our life (including 8hrs+/week of our life we spend working), we all want to have a say on the things affecting us (like our workplace), we all seek seek appreciation of our efforts, we all want to be valued members of a group. If you want those things (and most people do) - blue collar work doesn't offer anything of that sort, you other do what you are told, exactly how you are told, realize that you are a low life loser who've made some serious mistakes in your life and thus should just shut up and work.

Hurry up to that trade school folks, bosses need you to die younger in as much pain as possible.
Seriously? Turning to a TRADE is not the same as working on a factory line, which is less and less common anyway. And as for your last paragraph, white collar work doesn't guarantee you any of that either.
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Old 10-04-2013, 05:47 PM
 
Location: USA
7,474 posts, read 7,019,580 times
Reputation: 12503
I still don't understand this seething resentment towards those who went to college. It's as if there's a sect on this forum - and in society as a whole - that finds it satisfying to mock the college educated, particularly if they are having trouble finding a job. There's nothing to be gained as a society from unemployment or underemployment, regardless of a person't level of education, and only very small and pitiful people take delight in shouting out, "haha - your college degree ain't worth nothing now 'cuz you don't have a job, loser!"

Whatever the motivations of those who hate the college graduate may be, the reality is that we have a lack of jobs - all jobs - as a nation. This isn't a case of, "If everyone went into the trades, the economy would be great and we'd all have jobs." There is no way the trades would be able to absorb the millions of new graduates per year (yes, the number would be that high with about 20 million students enrolling in college per year.) The trades are not some sort of cure-all, with countless jobs just lined up, waiting for the right person.

We also do not have "too many people going to college." What we have is a lack of jobs, a lack of true career planning for young adults, and too many useless college majors. While one can say a person shouldn't have majored in something questionable, such as ancient poetry, to say that he or she should have instead been a trade worker is not a valid statement since it's based on nothing - the poetry major could have also simply gone after a different, far more useful, degree in college and then had a much better chance at employment. The only fact is the lack of jobs depending upon a useless major - the proper path a person should take can only be determined with quality career planning for young adults, something our nation flat-out lacks.

Long story short, while there are certainly too many questionable college majors that don't lead to employment, the facts are that gaining a useful college education significantly increases the lifetime income of the college graduate as well as opening up employment opportunities that simply would have been unobtainable without the degree. While the trades are fine and far better than dead-end jobs or majoring in something totally useless, they do not offer the same average career and income potential as can be had by gaining a higher education. There are always exceptions, but they are not the rule.

Let's focus on bringing the jobs back to this nation vs. wasting time on white collar vs. blue collar infighting.
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Old 10-04-2013, 06:48 PM
 
Location: Buckeye, AZ
38,936 posts, read 23,819,762 times
Reputation: 14125
I think that the issue is as Rambler mentioned is a job issue. The jobs created are not jobs that will help promote long-term economic growth. Low wages are quickly gone after payday, even if you are the most frugal of people. The key to economic growth is middle and high wage jobs. Without these, we will be facing the same issues the greatest generation did until World War II, prospering for some but not for the majority. Now yes, more jobs were lost during the depression and took longer to create some but we all know that it took longer to really regain footing.

The issue with career planning is an issue on all fronts. Parents need to be proactive, the same with students and educators. We have too many people that don't care about developing students into people in the workforce. You just worry about tests and then throwing them into college. Trade programs are nearly extinct for many places.
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Old 10-04-2013, 06:58 PM
 
1,148 posts, read 1,680,715 times
Reputation: 1327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123 View Post
I still don't understand this seething resentment towards those who went to college. It's as if there's a sect on this forum - and in society as a whole - that finds it satisfying to mock the college educated, particularly if they are having trouble finding a job. There's nothing to be gained as a society from unemployment or underemployment, regardless of a person't level of education, and only very small and pitiful people take delight in shouting out, "haha - your college degree ain't worth nothing now 'cuz you don't have a job, loser!"

Whatever the motivations of those who hate the college graduate may be, the reality is that we have a lack of jobs - all jobs - as a nation. This isn't a case of, "If everyone went into the trades, the economy would be great and we'd all have jobs." There is no way the trades would be able to absorb the millions of new graduates per year (yes, the number would be that high with about 20 million students enrolling in college per year.) The trades are not some sort of cure-all, with countless jobs just lined up, waiting for the right person.

We also do not have "too many people going to college." What we have is a lack of jobs, a lack of true career planning for young adults, and too many useless college majors. While one can say a person shouldn't have majored in something questionable, such as ancient poetry, to say that he or she should have instead been a trade worker is not a valid statement since it's based on nothing - the poetry major could have also simply gone after a different, far more useful, degree in college and then had a much better chance at employment. The only fact is the lack of jobs depending upon a useless major - the proper path a person should take can only be determined with quality career planning for young adults, something our nation flat-out lacks.

Long story short, while there are certainly too many questionable college majors that don't lead to employment, the facts are that gaining a useful college education significantly increases the lifetime income of the college graduate as well as opening up employment opportunities that simply would have been unobtainable without the degree. While the trades are fine and far better than dead-end jobs or majoring in something totally useless, they do not offer the same average career and income potential as can be had by gaining a higher education. There are always exceptions, but they are not the rule.

Let's focus on bringing the jobs back to this nation vs. wasting time on white collar vs. blue collar infighting.
Our society has a developed a "kick them while they're down" attitude. I see people who never went to college always try to put a college grad down when they work a low paying job. It is like they say "ha, you went to college and now you have to work here and I didn't go and work here ha, ha." Then, when the college graduate wants a better paying job because gee, he/she worked damn hard for the past 4 years, he/she is called entitled. How ridiculous are we??

I do disagree when you say that the trades can offer decent income potential if one picks the right trade. Robotics techs make just as much as a college graduate. Pipefitters can make good money. Truck drivers in ND are making six figures.
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Old 10-04-2013, 08:02 PM
 
Location: USA
7,474 posts, read 7,019,580 times
Reputation: 12503
Quote:
Originally Posted by redroses777 View Post
Our society has a developed a "kick them while they're down" attitude. I see people who never went to college always try to put a college grad down when they work a low paying job. It is like they say "ha, you went to college and now you have to work here and I didn't go and work here ha, ha." Then, when the college graduate wants a better paying job because gee, he/she worked damn hard for the past 4 years, he/she is called entitled. How ridiculous are we??

I do disagree when you say that the trades can offer decent income potential if one picks the right trade. Robotics techs make just as much as a college graduate. Pipefitters can make good money. Truck drivers in ND are making six figures.
True, some trades do pay well, though I'm not sure how much of that is temporary, such as the oil boom in North Dakota. Also, lifetime earnings tend to be higher for white-collar workers partly, I suspect, because their jobs don't wear them down as much physically so they can keep working longer.

Nothing against the trades, of course - we need people with those skills, and they are working an honest living like anyone else. I just think we need to focus more on jobs overall instead of blue collar vs. white collar, and we really should have fewer useless majors in college, IMHO.
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Old 10-04-2013, 08:44 PM
 
Location: Eastern Colorado
3,887 posts, read 5,734,709 times
Reputation: 5386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123 View Post
True, some trades do pay well, though I'm not sure how much of that is temporary, such as the oil boom in North Dakota. Also, lifetime earnings tend to be higher for white-collar workers partly, I suspect, because their jobs don't wear them down as much physically so they can keep working longer.

Nothing against the trades, of course - we need people with those skills, and they are working an honest living like anyone else. I just think we need to focus more on jobs overall instead of blue collar vs. white collar, and we really should have fewer useless majors in college, IMHO.
Food for thought, do you think that blue collar workers who move up a couple of steps in the organization than become white collar workers? People act as if you can only work one or the other, but I know many people that started off as blue collar labor and are not considered white collar as they manage entire departments and sometimes even divisions.
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