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Seems like companies are not the only ones looking for unicorns.
Our current situation isn't due to no one stepping up to fix it. It stems from people having - not just different understandings about what the problem is, but rather - diametrically opposed perspectives about what the problem is... some seeing the problem as lack of sufficient living wage jobs where Americans live and others seeing the problem as impediments to exploiting the economy for person gain (such as that which would either add living wage jobs where Americans live or make up for the failure in that regard).
Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4
Every 15 years or so, there is some drama about a terrible job market.
Then things turn around again.
Yes: There are business cycles.
However, these cycle occur within even longer-term cycles.
The result is something more nuanced than what you suggest:
What if we're at Point A in that last diagram?
Quote:
Originally Posted by branh0913
The real issue is that American's as a whole are ignorant about markets. They don't try to get into something all that marketable. There are still jobs in the USA, and damn good paying ones.
I think that's naive. Such realizations help one person climb over another instead of being climbed over. That's good for that individual but leaves the overall situation, in terms of people, unchanged.
And that's really what it comes down to: Do you want a society structured around doing what's best for money? or do you want a society structured around doing what's best for people? What's best for one (productivity leading to profit, in the case of money; plentiful living wage jobs, in the case of people) works against what's best for the other.
Really? Much of the growth of the economy has come mainly from people trying to find internet solutions. It is a more than viable way to advertise for example. As a matter fact, internet as a medium to do commerence and business is mandatory. The internet is probably going to grow long before it ever sinks. And that's just reality. The world economy is going to continue to grow due to the internet. The are jobs and TYPES of jobs that exist now, that would have been completely unfathomable 20-30 years ago. People are talking about job growth, yet we're sitting here talking about manufacturing jobs. Makes no sense to me one bit.
Technology has made manufacturing jobs completely easy to just automate. Sure the jobs are going to China, and they're not coming back. As a matter of fact, the chinese should worry about the jobs they do have being automated completely. As technology expands, it is becoming far more easier to simply automate factories, instead of having someone man them, and introduce products to human error. That's reality my friend.
There is a reason why Amazon is a very viable competitor to wal-mart. And as far as i know I can't find 1 solitary Amazon store in physical existence. Commerence and money movement is a very big reality in the online world. Advertisement is reality in the online world. Why do you think commodity hardware has a place now in enterprises? Because the way internet software scales if ever present in many appications today. Computer skills are needed for even the most miniscule labor. It's only a matter of time before Barista's at Starbucks are replaced by kiosk. There is a reason why online security, cyber security, and other things related to the digital world are VERY real and in demand type of jobs.
The bottomline, you can't make money doing the same thing you were doing 20-30 years ago. If your job doesn't revolve around the internet in some way, then you are playing catch up ball. And this is going to become more of reality than less so. There are entire enterprises that are doing damn well financially that are completely built around online banking, online banking services. PCI compliance, which is largely based around computer system is a big deal for corporations these days.
There is a reason why SAP is common place in enterprises today. There is a reason why Unix and Apache skills are still a valuable skillset. There is a reason why no one sitting around here with marketing degrees can avoid the beast that is online marketing. If you aren't talking about the internet business, then you are behind the curve.
The reality is, you can't live like a fat rat on some miniscule manufacturing job like you could back in the 1960s. This is an entirely new world, and computer savvy isn't a "nice to have" it's a "need to have" skillset. And more enterprise will continously offer digital and internet based solutions to thing that already exist. Ever hear of content management systems? It's REAL. Don't be surprised if a majority Law Firms aren't using some sort of Content Management systems. And digitial signatures are the next big thing right now. That is why company's that specialize in digital signing like Docusign are really close to offering an IPO.
And we're sitting here talking about factory jobs! LOL, you can't be serious. If you want a job based around manufacturing, then you should be understanding the necessary supply chain that comes with automation. There is a reason why people who deal with Warehouse Management Systems are cashing big checks these days.
And as far as these big internet company's offering training, do they really need to? Pick up a book, look at vendor websites, look at different designs, read standardization documents, read white papers, download a free community enterprise software solution, and start getting your hands dirty. It's not like recorded courses from Stanford, MIT, and countless top Indian and Asian universities don't put their lectures RIGHT ON YOUTUBE.
The real question isn't is there are jobs out there, or will there be jobs. It's do you accept that we're in the information age, and are you self motivated to learn about it?
For every Google, Yahoo, Twitter, Facebook and other big internet company, there are several who are doing awesome business, making millions, and are completely off of people's radar. Do you think Google offer solutions for trading firms in NYC and WallStreet? Nope there are business built that specialize in this domain. And you better believe they use computer to do these calculations. There are business and data analyst that analyze things like call records, all using internet technology. You don't think E911 calls don't use some sort of software? Beneath everything we do, that we take for granted on the internet, there are complex software built to do this dirty work. It takes functional knowledge, and technical knowledge. These jobs aren't going anywhere.
The point is internet businesses can't hire even half of the 30% unemployed and underemployed. Same thing with electrical engineers who are experts in cooling systems. It's a field that's hiring but there are simply not enough openings to take in so many people.
And seriously, aside from product managers and other limited roles, tech jobs don't require that many specialized skills. If the job market was strong enough, these "off the radar" companies would take in resumes from so many engineering graduates and train them.
My first job out of college was with a multinational IT company so I'm fully aware of what these tech companies really need. Now I work as a securities analyst for a securities and risk management firm and know exactly what the need is for people who do calculations. It's there alright but not as strong as some people think.
I check no, but it's a no in the foreseeable future. For those contemplating college, I'd make sure it's a career that can't be outsourced. for instance in healthcare something where you have to touch a patient. A 4 year degree in laboratory technology could foreseeably go overseas, have some entry level person prep the specimen scan and ship overseas for reading, rural hospitals are already doing this for many x-rays and lab results. There are plenty of Engineering and IT jobs but just make sure it's something that can't be outsourced, like computer hardware repair or the engineer on the ground building something. A friend has been a long time environmental engineer designing, building and maintaining sewer systems/waste treatment plants and she said it's going to be a real problem soon as many are now retiring and not enough people to replace them and her job will never go away, it might evolve but it's something that can't be outsourced.
Reasons it might come back: China's population is aging, possible labor shortages. The US dollar will drop, making the US cheaper. Boomers retiring or dying, opening up some jobs. US energy production is increasing, you can't outsource that. Finally if Obamacare works, more people opting to work part-time.
The point is internet businesses can't hire even half of the 30% unemployed and underemployed. Same thing with electrical engineers who are experts in cooling systems. It's a field that's hiring but there are simply not enough openings to take in so many people.
And seriously, aside from product managers and other limited roles, tech jobs don't require that many specialized skills. If the job market was strong enough, these "off the radar" companies would take in resumes from so many engineering graduates and train them.
My first job out of college was with a multinational IT company so I'm fully aware of what these tech companies really need. Now I work as a securities analyst for a securities and risk management firm and know exactly what the need is for people who do calculations. It's there alright but not as strong as some people think.
30%. Again that's just a random number. And even if it were 30%, which I doubt it is, there is no indication that this number won't grow. The thing is, you have to stop thinking of the internet as a job, and start looking at it as a medium.
In the 1700-1800 argiculture was a medium, in the industrial age manufacturing is a medium, and now the internet is that new medium. As is technology. Company's are pushing out more volume than they could have ever imagined due to the speed of technology and the internet. I mean why is there manufacturing in the first place? It exist because you can do MORE volume. That's all the internet and automation does.
Now you say that the only thing you would need is a product manager. This is wrong.
Think of online advertisement. You need an ad agency (this is a set of jobs), an ad network (another set of jobs), technical staff to build out or maintain this ad software. But on top of that you need trending and forecasting. You need business analyst who can look at these KPIs. I can list a ton of new jobs just 1 type of software can create.
Think about finance (I worked under this domain for a long time). You have a payment system, but you also need auditing. Why because you have to keep track of what is going on in these payment systems? you need domain knowledge from people with very good financial expertise. You need to give customers various ways to pay for a service. So this creates a lot of B2B scenarios. This is a client relatioship. how do you maintain these? Oh that's right, Account managers. How do you get those accounts? Sales. How do you know how to sell? Marketing.
This is the thing, computers solve problems. But computers within themselves also create a lot of functional domains as well. For example, if I'm worried about a Database running, do you think I have time to analyze what data is in a table, if it make sense, and complies with business logic? Nope, someone very specific to the business logic knows that. Generally a business analysis would have more insight. A developer would only handle the technical side, and may have some functional knowledge. But a buisness analyst has more of a domain.
But how does one even create software to tackle issues in finance, marketing, etc? Oh yeah, you need process. You need process in how to design and release software (release managers, non-technical). But of course, you'll need PMs to oversee the project. Big projects will have several PMs since most software is integrated. But let's not stop there, let's take it further. If you're creating bank software, guess what? The bank has it's own set of processes specific to it's industry! So if some sort of banking software explodes, and the company that make it becomes big. They will need people with banking industry knowledge. So this in turn is creating jobs for people other than IT workers.
Just like how manufacturing created jobs for people other than those on the assembly line and foremen. You need a factory manager, a foreman, shipping and receiving, supply and fufillment, delivery schedules, people who specified deadlines, people who analyzed volume. This is what I can't understand. A well oiled machine has many parts. That well oiled machine has been replaced with something new, and that's the information age.
The internet age is pretty new though. Standards are still being formalized. For example, in the online advertisement market, there are new standards being proposed. Right now it's the wild wild west. But manufacturing industries had to do the same thing at a point. There were growing pains in the early days of manufacturing too.
This is the thing, the internet is a medium. Within that it creates brand new markets that didn't previously exist. Demand ask for these markets to be created. The internet, and computer systems just aren't for a few geeks at Silicon Valley who want to pat themselves on the back. No, this technology is fueling business solutions today, and company's have a lot of stock in this stuff. Why is it that every company now has an online store, why is it every company advertise online? You can't do without it. It's as bad as not advertising on TV. It's as bad as selling products, but not having a major chain carry it. The internet is ESSENTIAL for business these days. And there are more than just tech jobs that it creates. It creates a ton ton of jobs along with it for people of various backgrounds. The catch is, that these new type of jobs require good knowledge of the online world.
There are plenty of Engineering and IT jobs but just make sure it's something that can't be outsourced, like computer hardware repair or the engineer on the ground building something.
Building hardware can, is, and will continue to be automated. Building computers in a factory is worth like $10 an hour. That's not even remotely an IT job. Now I'm going to go ahead and shed the light on something, and I've been debating making a thread on it.
So every computer require a computer chip
How did that computer chip get created? It was designed by someone. That someone had a job. And not only was it designed by someone, it was more than likely designed by a number of people. Those people probably used some sort of software. That software probably had performance data on it.
Opps, so someone had to create that software right. Guess that is another group of jobs. But how do you figure out if the previous performance data of that chip is correct. Oh, that's right, you need someone to QA this. Probably would help to have someone who can analyze that data as well.
But then you have to ask why are they making that new computer in the first place? Hmm, maybe because consumers had issues with the previous model. Now how were the people who made the chip able to figure this out? Oh, there are surveys. Customer reports. Someone who is employed somewhere had to look at these reports. Point out whatever limits were in the previous model, and they had to create something called....
A project. So this requires a project manager, a business analyst, probably need a product manager who can talk to the sales team. You know all that stuff. And then you're going to create a huge pipeline.
but let's not even talk about the chip manufactur. Let's talk about the various materials in the computer. Do you think one company manufactured every aspect of that computer? The answer would be no. You have other pieces of hardware in that computer like the power supply (another job, various types of positions) the memory (another set of jobs), the wires inside of the computer probably came from someone (another set of jobs), and there is a case (another set of jobs). And I'm being broad.
So to have one computer, it had to go through all that (and probably more, I'm being conservative here), and look at ALL those jobs needed. Unless you think the guy in the warehouse building the computer manned the project to make the computer, took a survey of the previous computer's performance, and designed the ram, cpu, power supply, ribbon cables, etc all by himself?
Building hardware can, is, and will continue to be automated. Building computers in a factory is worth like $10 an hour. That's not even remotely an IT job. Now I'm going to go ahead and shed the light on something, and I've been debating making a thread on it.
So every computer require a computer chip
How did that computer chip get created? It was designed by someone. That someone had a job. And not only was it designed by someone, it was more than likely designed by a number of people. Those people probably used some sort of software. That software probably had performance data on it.
Opps, so someone had to create that software right. Guess that is another group of jobs. But how do you figure out if the previous performance data of that chip is correct. Oh, that's right, you need someone to QA this. Probably would help to have someone who can analyze that data as well.
But then you have to ask why are they making that new computer in the first place? Hmm, maybe because consumers had issues with the previous model. Now how were the people who made the chip able to figure this out? Oh, there are surveys. Customer reports. Someone who is employed somewhere had to look at these reports. Point out whatever limits were in the previous model, and they had to create something called....
A project. So this requires a project manager, a business analyst, probably need a product manager who can talk to the sales team. You know all that stuff. And then you're going to create a huge pipeline.
but let's not even talk about the chip manufactur. Let's talk about the various materials in the computer. Do you think one company manufactured every aspect of that computer? The answer would be no. You have other pieces of hardware in that computer like the power supply (another job, various types of positions) the memory (another set of jobs), the wires inside of the computer probably came from someone (another set of jobs), and there is a case (another set of jobs). And I'm being broad.
So to have one computer, it had to go through all that (and probably more, I'm being conservative here), and look at ALL those jobs needed. Unless you think the guy in the warehouse building the computer manned the project to make the computer, took a survey of the previous computer's performance, and designed the ram, cpu, power supply, ribbon cables, etc all by himself?
Put all that together. It still does not make a real dent in future employment.
Back when Jimmy Carter was president, it was a whole lot easier for things to get better because there was much more industrial production here in the US. Since then millions (yes, millions) of jobs have moved overseas. The absence of these jobs and those industries will make it much harder for the economy to improve. Whether we will pull out of this economic slump and things will get better or this is the norm, God only knows.
Those manufacturing jobs that went away due to outsourcing or automation? Those aren't coming back. Those are jobs that folks could do without any college education and they are GONE.
Combine that with the recession we've been in. Companies laying off workers by the thousands. Learning to do 'more with less'.
Not this time. Never in history has our country printed trillions of dollars out of nothing. In WWII we sold War Bonds, but those were paid off to the bondholders after the war. The Weimar Republic in Germany printed trillions out of nothing and they hung the bankers. Zimbabwe did it and you can buy Zimbabwean dollars at country fairs for a quarter. The day of the $49,95 microwave oven at WalMart will soon be over.
Germany recovered from their economic blunder and by 1938 they had the most powerful army and navy in the world. They didn't buy that with Reichsmarks. They bought it with gold and silver, the only mediums of exchange with real value. The rest is smoke and mirrors. Paper currency is more convenient when it represents precious metal in reserve. Paper money printed out of nothing has not real long term value and knowledgable economists know this. Such facts are not just gloom and doom prognostications. They are historical facts based on thousands of years of history.
Get ready folks. Build your useful skills. Anthropology is not going to be in high demand. fireplace builders and wood stove installers will be in high demand. Accumulate tools at yard sales. Get the means to sharpen them. Get warm clothes, rain gear and warm mittens. Get two pairs of good waterproof boots for every member of the family. Get food that can be stored without a freezer. Get the means to protect what you have. What we face has been planned for a century.
Be thankful this day for what we have. As Henny Youngman used to say, "It could be worse." A whole lot of people in our nation know what is coming.
30%. Again that's just a random number. And even if it were 30%, which I doubt it is, there is no indication that this number won't grow. The thing is, you have to stop thinking of the internet as a job, and start looking at it as a medium.
In the 1700-1800 argiculture was a medium, in the industrial age manufacturing is a medium, and now the internet is that new medium. As is technology. Company's are pushing out more volume than they could have ever imagined due to the speed of technology and the internet. I mean why is there manufacturing in the first place? It exist because you can do MORE volume. That's all the internet and automation does.
Now you say that the only thing you would need is a product manager. This is wrong.
Think of online advertisement. You need an ad agency (this is a set of jobs), an ad network (another set of jobs), technical staff to build out or maintain this ad software. But on top of that you need trending and forecasting. You need business analyst who can look at these KPIs. I can list a ton of new jobs just 1 type of software can create.
Think about finance (I worked under this domain for a long time). You have a payment system, but you also need auditing. Why because you have to keep track of what is going on in these payment systems? you need domain knowledge from people with very good financial expertise. You need to give customers various ways to pay for a service. So this creates a lot of B2B scenarios. This is a client relatioship. how do you maintain these? Oh that's right, Account managers. How do you get those accounts? Sales. How do you know how to sell? Marketing.
This is the thing, computers solve problems. But computers within themselves also create a lot of functional domains as well. For example, if I'm worried about a Database running, do you think I have time to analyze what data is in a table, if it make sense, and complies with business logic? Nope, someone very specific to the business logic knows that. Generally a business analysis would have more insight. A developer would only handle the technical side, and may have some functional knowledge. But a buisness analyst has more of a domain.
But how does one even create software to tackle issues in finance, marketing, etc? Oh yeah, you need process. You need process in how to design and release software (release managers, non-technical). But of course, you'll need PMs to oversee the project. Big projects will have several PMs since most software is integrated. But let's not stop there, let's take it further. If you're creating bank software, guess what? The bank has it's own set of processes specific to it's industry! So if some sort of banking software explodes, and the company that make it becomes big. They will need people with banking industry knowledge. So this in turn is creating jobs for people other than IT workers.
Just like how manufacturing created jobs for people other than those on the assembly line and foremen. You need a factory manager, a foreman, shipping and receiving, supply and fufillment, delivery schedules, people who specified deadlines, people who analyzed volume. This is what I can't understand. A well oiled machine has many parts. That well oiled machine has been replaced with something new, and that's the information age.
The internet age is pretty new though. Standards are still being formalized. For example, in the online advertisement market, there are new standards being proposed. Right now it's the wild wild west. But manufacturing industries had to do the same thing at a point. There were growing pains in the early days of manufacturing too.
This is the thing, the internet is a medium. Within that it creates brand new markets that didn't previously exist. Demand ask for these markets to be created. The internet, and computer systems just aren't for a few geeks at Silicon Valley who want to pat themselves on the back. No, this technology is fueling business solutions today, and company's have a lot of stock in this stuff. Why is it that every company now has an online store, why is it every company advertise online? You can't do without it. It's as bad as not advertising on TV. It's as bad as selling products, but not having a major chain carry it. The internet is ESSENTIAL for business these days. And there are more than just tech jobs that it creates. It creates a ton ton of jobs along with it for people of various backgrounds. The catch is, that these new type of jobs require good knowledge of the online world.
A random number? Gallup tracks both unemployment and underemployment so don't kid us. If you make it 25%, it's still insurmountable.
Your incessant braying about the internet is pointless. It can't hire so many people and pay them high enough wages.
I told you I worked for an IT company for my first job so I know what it takes. Was both in marketing, systems engineering and PM. I did installations and demos for banking and telcos using their "own set of processes". With no previous background in computers other than Basic and Pascal, I got up to speed in SWIFT, ATM, Candle, VSE, VB, relational databases, data mining and OLAP. I customized software for banks, utilities and telcos so none of the internet stuff you're talking about is new to me. I even did some web-based demos before I switched to investment banking. My former employer hired accountants, civil engineers and mathematicians and taught them to become experts in large computer systems. One very capable colleague of mine was a CPA who became an expert in the connectivity between ERP systems and relational databases.
The point is if these tech and internet companies really needed workers BADLY ENOUGH, they will hire and train whoever for whatever job and industry. They can make a lab chemist an expert in those skills you posted. The fact that they're not willing to train means they don't really have to fill these slots.
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