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Old 03-05-2014, 01:20 PM
 
Location: USA
7,474 posts, read 7,006,282 times
Reputation: 12503

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Quote:
Originally Posted by nephil View Post
I don't agree with this, to me it sounds a little bitter and nothing is this black and white. There are always going to be people who are favored...they are savvy and manage up really well. They are able to talk to the right people and make themselves seen very early on, even if they aren't quite qualified, they make the majority of people believe that they are. Sometimes it may not seem fair, but often they are taking advantage of opportunities that come along and being available at the right time.

Your attitude is going to determine how others view you. If you have two equally qualified individuals, but one of them is shy and withdrawn and the other is congenial and cheerful, who do you think will get to stick around when it becomes necessary for one to be eliminated?
I don't see how anyone can deny that good looking people with high charisma have an edge in life, as do those with powerful connections. I'm not saying that nobody else can be successful, but I've simply never seen anyone who has been able to achieve true career success and job security based solely on their skills, education, experience, or overall morals and ethics. In all cases, those who are able to achieve everything they wish have had luck of some kind play a huge role. Perhaps you have not experienced this, but that does not invalidate my own experiences, which was the original question asked.

As for attitude, I can only partly agree with you on that. Sure, if you have a choice between a miserable person and a cheerful one, the cheerful one should - in a sane world - be the one to get or keep a job. And yet, time and again I have seen the exact opposite. Far too many companies rank the value of their employee personalities in the following order from best to worst: cheerful and helpful, then angry, loud, and often sadistic, and finally quiet and hard working. I have no idea why so many companies prefer angry, hateful louts who pick fights over quiet workers, but given how often I've seen this happen, it's not just an isolated instance. Perhaps too many people mistake "loud and angry" for "leadership" and mistake "picking fights" for "getting things done."
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Old 03-05-2014, 01:32 PM
 
Location: USA
7,474 posts, read 7,006,282 times
Reputation: 12503
Quote:
Originally Posted by nephil View Post
Luck is a state of mind. Every single thing that comes into our lives, whether good or bad, is there because of our own thoughts and actions. It may seem unlucky if someone loses a job for no apparent reason, but maybe it was for a reason, maybe it was because another, even better one is waiting for them, but unfortunately they are so hung up on the "bad luck" of losing the job in the first place that they can't see the opportunity right in front of them.

Those who believe in luck as the reason for things happening or not happening are generally not self-aware enough to realize that they make their own choices to get them where they are. Every day we make choices and those choices have consequences whether minor or major. The act of simply blaming things on luck and/or knowing the right person implies that unless you have one of those qualifications you will never get anywhere in life, which is absolutely ridiculous. Have you ever heard of Warren Buffet, John D. Rockefeller, etc?

Most people only take responsibility for the good things that happen in their lives and blame the bad things on "bad luck". People should spend less time blaming their circumstances on luck or whatever else and actually spend more time thinking about the decisions they make on a minute by minute basis.
I'm sorry, but I must speak out against the "law of attraction" as proposed here.

I'll accept the concept that our state of mind can make us more or less aware of various opportunities around us. For example, if a very depressed single guy who has no faith in himself walks into a bar to look for a woman, he will not find one because he lacks the confidence to see what opportunities are around him - he is already convinced of his failure, so he will fail, even if a woman there was interested in him. On the flip side, a confident man will see the opportunities present in the same situation and be far more likely to succeed.

But I cannot for a moment buy into the belief that "every single thing that comes into our lives, whether good or bad, is there because of our own thoughts and actions."

That is perhaps the ultimate incarnation of the Just World Fallacy, a concept that, I hope, shall someday be dis-proven as a failed ideology.

How does a child, born into a 3rd world nation, deserve such a fate? How did that child's "thoughts or actions" lead him or her to be first born into horrific poverty, then slowly starve to death - or maybe watch his parents die in genocide - and then die painfully? There's no way that child can in any way be held accountable.

The same holds true for countless things in life. How does a person who takes care of their body bring a horrible disease into their life through their thoughts and actions? And, at the same time, how does somebody who does NOT take care of themselves manage to live to old age without developing a terrible illness?

And what about accidents? How did a man "bring into his life" the truck that killed him on a highway? Did his thoughts incarnate that truck or guide it to plow into his car? And what of the woman who is mugged? Did her thoughts or actions attract or create random criminals?

I'm not saying we don't have some control over our lives or that we can't take actions to reduce the odds of bad things happening - eating right, driving safely, avoiding bad parts of town at night - but to truly state that EVERYTHING that happens to us occurs because of OUR THOUGHTS AND ACTIONS is simply absurd and reduces the world to some magical fairy-tale realm of mental power in an effort to explain away why bad things happen to good people without acknowledging the painful reality of luck.

No, the truth is that the world is a cold, cruel place, and many things that happen do so for no good reason at all. You are right saying that it is healthier not to get hung up on such things, but it is still important to acknowledge them for what they are - examples of luck, be it good or bad, and thus they are outside our control.
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Old 03-05-2014, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Florida
769 posts, read 974,454 times
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Well I am successful but it didn't come easy. I work in a male dominated field (IT) and have worked very hard to get here. I have dealt with comments that are borderline obnoxious. Never got bent out of shape at them just ignored it (thick skin comes in handy). Played nice with other departments. Networked a lot. Didn't burn bridges even when the bridge should have been torched and bombed. Nope..just kept moving forward. Now..I am in a job that I am not happy with but putting my effort into it and working through some rocky areas. I am learning a lot and it will bring me to the next phase of career.

I am a very out-going and friendly person. People remember who I am even a few years later. Yesterday was a PRIME example. Someone I worked with 8 years ago saw me in the cafeteria. We worked on completely different bases and saw each other occasionally. He is like OMG I thought I saw you moved here. We spent our lunch hour catching up. I was like dang.
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Old 03-05-2014, 02:59 PM
 
Location: Florida and the Rockies
1,963 posts, read 2,211,806 times
Reputation: 3299
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_grimace View Post
Almost everyone I've talked to that has had career success say they got their in one of two ways. (Or a combination of the two)
- Luck
- Knowing the Right Person

I can't count the number of individuals I know who got awesome jobs simply because they had a close friend or family member working at the company, the unfortunate fact being the individual was terribly unqualified for the job. It drove me up the wall seeing incompetent new hires come into the company above me just because they had a uncle on the board or something.
Agreed on both counts. Part of luck is also right place/ right time. Living in San Jose, California, for example would tend to be more correlated with consistent employment than living in Providence, Rhode Island.

Networking is how the good jobs are filled in my experience. Temp and low-level jobs are filled through HR, higher-level jobs through personal networking (and presented to HR as a fait accompli).

I would also add that once in the door, the most successful employees tend to have intelligence, personality, and persistence.
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Old 03-05-2014, 03:09 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
2,825 posts, read 4,438,917 times
Reputation: 1830
So many IT contributors, I like it!

There are a lot of great points in this thread. I myself have done fairly well in my short career(I'm only 28). I came from a privileged background with MANY connections through my upbringing. I however have never used them and do not intend to for a long time if ever. I went to college and dropped out due to my own fault of caring more about having fun than getting an education and lucked into my first IT job. I was NEVER into computers growing up, but when I moved back from college I found an open job and applied. After 2 years working as a low level IT admin I moved to an MSP for a few months, and from there to the company I am with today. We are an IT consulting firm that specializes in Out Sourcing, Projects and CIO services. My career truly has blossomed at this company through knowing when to speak up, move up, volunteer and put in long hours. I get along with just about every single one of my colleges and every one of our clients. When it is time for me to move from one client to the next, there is a consistent sadness. I think it's more about relationships sometimes than it is about technical ability in any job. You have to have a understanding of your particular field for sure, but the relationships you build are really what seems to drive your career(or it has for me at least), especially if you want to move into an executive/manager role. I am definitely on the lower end of technical ability at my current place of employment, but even the owners have said that my influence within our company is sometimes higher than theirs.
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Old 03-05-2014, 03:17 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 3,982,499 times
Reputation: 8796
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123 View Post
They are not excuses - they are statements of fact based upon years of experience, both my own and those of others I know.

.
You are mistaking fact for perception. Fact is that women make less money than men and achieve lower ranks than men at every level of income and education. Your perception is that pretty women are getting ahead of you even though they are not as good as you. Sounds like bitter misogyny to me.
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Old 03-05-2014, 03:49 PM
 
3,549 posts, read 5,356,410 times
Reputation: 3769
I think "luck" could only come in a few different ways.

1. Having connections that are basically blood related/you were born into.
- If YOU made the connections with your personality, joining clubs, being friendly, etc., this is NOT entirely luck. This is called NETWORKING.

2. If you managed to land your job at a desperate time for a company. I.e. You are under skilled and over paid. If you got laid off tomorrow, you could not find a similar job. You just so happened to be in the right place at the right time.

I think some people would consider my personal success lucky, but that's only because they don't know the whole back story. They just look at my high income and my age (I'm 25)

However, I have done a lot to get here. I worked my way up starting with a tech school, then an associates degree. In the last 5 years I have called in sick once? maybe. I am reliable, hard working, and smarter than the average joes in my field (in some ways). I have continued my education from the moment I entered this field. Earning several certifications and then continuing with other education and training, all stuff that stands out on a resume.

I have switched employers a few times and I am a good negotiator. I have an impressive resume and I have a positive reference from my direct boss for Every. Single. Job. I have ever worked. In fact, one employer called one of my old employers and the old employer said "make sure to tell him that if you don't hire him, we'd love to have him back." Good references can make all the difference in the world to make up other areas that are lacking.

I think the work ethic, reliability, and eagerness to perform my job is what has made me valuable. I never let myself be accountable for any issues, ever. Not saying it's never happened, but it is very very rare.. I don't work hard but I work smart and cover my bases.

Most people would think I'm lucky just because I'm young and my salary is high. The truth is I'm basically a model employee on top of it. I get along with most everyone and I do my job description.
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Old 03-05-2014, 03:51 PM
 
3,549 posts, read 5,356,410 times
Reputation: 3769
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mnseca View Post
You are mistaking fact for perception. Fact is that women make less money than men and achieve lower ranks than men at every level of income and education. Your perception is that pretty women are getting ahead of you even though they are not as good as you. Sounds like bitter misogyny to me.
This is statistically true.

Of course there are exceptions, there are to EVERYTHING. However in general, Mnseca is correct.

Don't think it doesn't go both ways sometimes as well.

I worked as a male CNA in nursing homes for 3 years in high school and college. I can promise you that I was a hot commodity in a female dominated work place, and I know for a fact I'd get chosen over an equally qualified female. They like having a male on board to help with male residents, as well as because they can typically lift more as well. I had been told in interviews that male CNA's are hard to find.. I'm sure for the longest time (may still be) it's similar with nursing as well.
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Old 03-05-2014, 04:05 PM
 
Location: USA
7,474 posts, read 7,006,282 times
Reputation: 12503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mnseca View Post
You are mistaking fact for perception. Fact is that women make less money than men and achieve lower ranks than men at every level of income and education. Your perception is that pretty women are getting ahead of you even though they are not as good as you. Sounds like bitter misogyny to me.
Um, no - I'm reporting the facts - unless you're claiming that the events I saw didn't count (or didn't happen) or you're actually trying to convince me that good looking people do not have an edge in life.

As I said before, I'm sorry you ran into ill treatment of women in the workforce, but I'm not going to waste my time fighting with you about something I do not support and did not influence. The facts are what they are - good looking people on average have an edge. Find somebody else to fight without about that if you don't like it - I have no idea why you're trying to waste my time since I never supported women being paid less anyway.
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Old 03-05-2014, 04:50 PM
 
Location: Florida
769 posts, read 974,454 times
Reputation: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mnseca View Post
You are mistaking fact for perception. Fact is that women make less money than men and achieve lower ranks than men at every level of income and education. Your perception is that pretty women are getting ahead of you even though they are not as good as you. Sounds like bitter misogyny to me.
Haha..this cracks me up because I make quite a bit more money than some of the other men I work with. I could tell you my creditiantals but it is kind of not the point.
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