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Old 03-13-2014, 07:33 PM
 
Location: Buckeye, AZ
38,936 posts, read 23,749,907 times
Reputation: 14125

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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcopolo View Post
Why is it that only you can hear the dog whistles?

I do agree about "self-made successes." I am definitely not a self-made success. I had access to all the other benefits available to everybody else in the lower class inner city I grew up in. It was all luck--and the harder I worked, the luckier I got.
That's the issue, you make your own luck but not all of it is created by you. Some amount of it is external to you. I mean you may have family friends get you the job to start. The issue is many who have the view of "no one owes you a job" don't believe in any sort of luck even if it is created by you.

 
Old 03-13-2014, 08:22 PM
 
821 posts, read 1,096,869 times
Reputation: 1292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelassie View Post
More evidence that the concept of self-sufficiency and personal responsibility have become archaic concepts, replaced by a liberal sense of entitlement and the need to blame others for one's own failures.....

I actually don't think I'm entitled to anything. I make a decent salary--far from rich, but not starving either; just solidly middle class--and I take my job seriously.

I've been laid off once because the place where I worked closed due to fiscal malfeasance of administrator. Another time I had to leave a place at which I was exposed to atrocious behavior and was being asked and pressured to do illegal things on a daily basis (god knows how many things I signed or falsely documented there). And yet a third time I had to leave a place because of the misconduct of the place (the administrator and eight workers were arrested three weeks ago).

EVERY single time I had these inconveniences in my life I did not sit around on my hands! I applied to jobs and eventually got another one. I didn't want to be unemployed for a day! I have a masters degree-not a monumental feat and it took hard work--and I try very hard at my job. If something is inconvenient and burdensome, I still do it. I slept at work for Hurricanes Irene and Sandy. I currently am studying for a certification and want to start a spare time side hustle for myself. I am engaged and want a family one day. Being a good husband and father and worker isn't going to come about by doing nothing.

My own dad was the most negligent person I've ever known--didn't want to lift a foot or hand for anything or anybody--a person who thought the world owed him the utmost respect just for existing. I certainly don't want to wind up like him.

Last edited by Cerebrator; 03-13-2014 at 08:48 PM..
 
Old 03-13-2014, 08:43 PM
 
13,395 posts, read 13,418,689 times
Reputation: 35710
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaveyL View Post
It's kind of hard to "learn a new skill" when most employers will ignore that. For example, one could take classes on some new tech, but most employers want years of experience in a business environment using it.
You just created another excuse. Instead of looking for problems, why not focus on the solution.

How about if someone:

1. Learned a new skill
2. Then figured out ways to get the experience. Do freelance or volunteer work, find a mentor, develop your own apprenticeship, etc.

Do the best you can with what you have. Even 6 months of volunteer work on the resume can open a door.
 
Old 03-13-2014, 08:59 PM
 
Location: USA
7,474 posts, read 7,005,339 times
Reputation: 12503
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlygal View Post
You just created another excuse. Instead of looking for problems, why not focus on the solution.

How about if someone:

1. Learned a new skill
2. Then figured out ways to get the experience. Do freelance or volunteer work, find a mentor, develop your own apprenticeship, etc.

Do the best you can with what you have. Even 6 months of volunteer work on the resume can open a door.
While I'm all in favor of learning new skills and volunteering, let's not kid ourselves that doing so is the solution in most cases. Just to provide a STEM example from my own life, a person who designs military electronics by day can't "learn a new skill" and gain to 3 to 5 years of professional experience also designing something like automotive engines in his free time... nor can he do that by volunteering. So, when the work in his day job dries up and other engineering fields are in demand, he's basically hosed. Companies want years of professional experience, not "I took a course in it" for non-entry level jobs. Entry level ones are far more forgiving about experience, but they are also only open to fresh college graduates.

Long story short, I don't disagree with the principle of what you're saying, particularly if the person in question lacks relatively basic skills (computer use, etc.) that can be taught in a course, but it really only works if there is a skill that one can learn by taking a few classes or volunteering that is relevant to getting a job in your line of work. Unfortunately, most jobs these days have absurdly narrow job requirements with minimum barriers of entry in the 3+ year range of professional experience. That rules out: taking a few classes, doing a bit of side work, etc.
 
Old 03-13-2014, 09:00 PM
 
Location: USA
7,474 posts, read 7,005,339 times
Reputation: 12503
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaveyL View Post
One of Henry Ford's goals was to make it so the average Joe could afford a car. And built a business around that idea.
The funny part was that Henry Ford was not a nice guy. He hated labor, wasn't fond of his workers, and had Nazi sympathies... and even he was smart enough to realize that if you make the working class dirt poor, they can't afford your products and soon enough your company is out of business and the nation slides into an economic pit when that mistake is repeated everywhere.

Of course based on the ignorance displayed by the corporate shills here and across the nation, he'd be considered a "socialist" by today's standards for not maximizing his short-term profits at the expense of his workers!
 
Old 03-13-2014, 09:29 PM
 
7,912 posts, read 7,751,223 times
Reputation: 4147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123 View Post
While I'm all in favor of learning new skills and volunteering, let's not kid ourselves that doing so is the solution in most cases. Just to provide a STEM example from my own life, a person who designs military electronics by day can't "learn a new skill" and gain to 3 to 5 years of professional experience also designing something like automotive engines in his free time... nor can he do that by volunteering. So, when the work in his day job dries up and other engineering fields are in demand, he's basically hosed. Companies want years of professional experience, not "I took a course in it" for non-entry level jobs. Entry level ones are far more forgiving about experience, but they are also only open to fresh college graduates.

Long story short, I don't disagree with the principle of what you're saying, particularly if the person in question lacks relatively basic skills (computer use, etc.) that can be taught in a course, but it really only works if there is a skill that one can learn by taking a few classes or volunteering that is relevant to getting a job in your line of work. Unfortunately, most jobs these days have absurdly narrow job requirements with minimum barriers of entry in the 3+ year range of professional experience. That rules out: taking a few classes, doing a bit of side work, etc.
But doesn't that also reflect the lack of utility of working in military electronics?

Learning skills does work and experience can be taken in a number of different ways. It does not exactly mean a full time paid job.

Case in point within government there are plenty of people that work for free. Endless boards and commissions where no one is a paid a dime. Selectmen/women that might get $1,000 a year for a few hours a week for a year boils down to maybe $5/hr! City councilors might make what....10k a year but again that still boils down to less than a minimum wage. Plenty do work at non profits as they are largely grant funded or have some business plan. Yet all of these are forms of experience and equally valid because they DO take time and energy to work on. They DO produce deliverables.

Obviously there are some professions where the employee does not own the methods of product. A chemist is not exactly that likely to own the chemistry lab they work on, a mechanic might not have a series of engines they work on and so forth. But in many other positions that is not the case. If you are an accountant you can be so pretty much anywhere. A programmer the same thing a lawyer the same etc.


Rambler I understand your frustrations but if you are looking for work maybe we could help you if you put down your metro area.
 
Old 03-13-2014, 09:29 PM
 
Location: it depends
6,369 posts, read 6,382,289 times
Reputation: 6388
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123 View Post
The funny part was that Henry Ford was not a nice guy. He hated labor, wasn't fond of his workers, and had Nazi sympathies... and even he was smart enough to realize that if you make the working class dirt poor, they can't afford your products and soon enough your company is out of business and the nation slides into an economic pit when that mistake is repeated everywhere.

Of course based on the ignorance displayed by the corporate shills here and across the nation, he'd be considered a "socialist" by today's standards for not maximizing his short-term profits at the expense of his workers!
No, the really funny part was that he could not keep workers in his factories prior to the big wage increase. Henry Ford was paying below market-value wages, so naturally he could not retain sufficient numbers of workers, and being a practical guy he brought the wage scale up to market value.

It was great PR later to claim a more far-sighted rationale--but that's not the way it was. No business can pay above-market wages on a sustainable basis.
 
Old 03-13-2014, 09:40 PM
 
1,823 posts, read 2,833,298 times
Reputation: 2830
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerebrator View Post
Anyone care to share what they mean when they say or hear the phrases, "No one owes you anything.", and "No one owes you a job."?
Yeah, it means that you have to work to earn whatever position you get - you're not just going to be handed a great position just because you want it.
 
Old 03-13-2014, 10:37 PM
 
8,275 posts, read 7,898,103 times
Reputation: 12122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerebrator View Post
Anyone care to share what they mean when they say or hear the phrases, "No one owes you anything.", and "No one owes you a job."?
It means "I'm sick of my taxes going to Section 8, welfare, EBT, WIC, Obamaphones, Medicaid, years of unemployment and every other vote buying social program".
 
Old 03-13-2014, 10:44 PM
 
11,337 posts, read 10,981,366 times
Reputation: 14993
Quote:
Originally Posted by finalmove View Post
Wow, I stumbled on this thread by accident and am amazed at the philosophy of a couple of the posters here.
Expecting life to be fair is their first mistake. We all have about 40-50 years to make an existence for ourselves. You can do it alone or with a partner. That's all we get, and noone leaves here alive.
Some people are smarter than others and find the better paths. Some are not as smart or worse, stupid, and will end up in a more humble situation.
Since the beginning of civilization there have been the wealthy and there have been bums. Their stories have been the same throughout history, and their skeletons all look alike.
It's part life choices and part inate talent. Expecting the world to bestow a fair and carbon-neutral life upon them is exactly why they will struggle. If you use up your time on earth complaining, you'll be in for a surprise when you find that you are too old to work and didn't do what was necessary to store enough acorns.
I can only guess at the age of the more prolific whiners here. The ones that type thousands of words complaining about perceived boogeymen keeping them down. I'm guessing they are in their 20's based on the nouveau excuses for their station in life.
My life wasn't anything to write a book about, but I married a wonderful girl, and we both worked hard and smart.
We are both nearing retirement with only what we have accomplished as backup. No pensions, no government or military retirement. Just saving and investing. We reached critical mass recently at ages 52 & 60. With two unremarkable jobs, we banked almost a million dollars in the last ten years alone. It can be done.
Buck up and grow up. Noone owes you anything. Certainly not me.
Finally some rational philosophy. Where have you been all my life?
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