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I don't know about entitlement, but I do know that 'engineers' tend to get really annoyed whenever someone has the title engineer but did not specifically go to a school of engineering.
I was promoted in a previous job from system admin to system engineer and my engineering school grad friends had a small fit over it -- stating that titles are thrown around left and right and how these people are not REAL engineer, blah blah.
My argument is that engineer, in some instances, is more of a definition of your role and the work you do; not whether your diploma specifically says college of engineering. Anyone can get a piece of paper, I'd rather trust someone who has 'engineered' things through practice.
Sorry, I know this rant was slightly off topic.
Aerospace Engineer here. The biggest reason why I want to see a "diploma" from a nationally accredited Engineering College is to know the person I am working with has the same fundamental knowledege that that I have. I know the base courses that they have taken and I know they will be able to understand what I am saying on most Engineering related topics. If it is a non-degreed Engineer I'm not going to have a clue to what his knowledge base is. If I have 10 non degreed Engineers I'm working with the variability in their knowledge base is going to be all over the place. One guy may be an expert in Thermodynamics but may know nothing about Materials, or Fluid dynamics. If I was a manager at an aircraft company or some other area that had life safety concerns I don't know if it makes sense to take on the liability of a non degreed Engineer. If it was some area that did not have those concerns the degree really wouldn't matter.
On the other hand I have worked with some non degreed Engineers who were experts in their fields. I still don't know their knowledge base and would have to know them on an individual basis to know what exactly their background was.
I am an engineer, and engineers are not "entitled" at all. In fact, I, unfortunately, notice the opposite. Most of my colleagues are doormats who allow management to abuse us, and that makes it difficult for people like myself who want engineers to actually be treated as human beings. It, unfortunately, forces people like myself into a race to the bottom.
I stayed home during a major blizzard in 2010, when there was a state of emergency, and everyone was asked to say off of the road unless they were an emergency vehicle. I had nothing urgent going on at work that day that couldn't wait for the next day. There was a state of emergency, roads were unplowed, there were utility poles knocked down and blocking roads, traffic signals not functioning, etc. And I used a vacation day to stay home. Yet I was reprimanded for doing so. And I was told by my colleagues, who just cheerfully ignored the state of emergency, and put their lives and other lives at risk, that "If you want benefits, you went into the wrong profession". As if staying home (and burning a vacation day!) to avoid putting my life at risk and others at risk during a state of emergency is a "benefit". But it is because of this doormat attitude of my colleagues that management can get away with it.
Also, society has no respect for engineers. I'm sick and tired of hearing about how teachers have the hardest job in the world and the most important job in the world. But how would teachers be able to get to work without engineers who design the roads that they use? Obviously teachers do have a very important job, but we all depend on each other. Why don't engineers get the respect that other professions get?
Back to the 2010 blizzard: at least where I live, teachers got a free day off (they are allowed 3 snow days that don't have to be made up), yet I was reprimanded for burning a vacation day. When I questioned my colleagues as to why is a teacher's life worth more than an engineer's life, their response was "because it is". Ridiculous!
Finally, I think "entitled" is one of the most overused and meaningless buzzwords on this forum.
I'm sorry you work for a company that did that to you.
This past winter, we had quite a few blizzards. Brutal winter. My boss sent out a text message every morning when conditions were bad telling everyone to work from home. Yes, text via phone.
Our CEO is an engineer. All the corporate heads are engineers. I think it really makes a difference whether an engineering firm is run by engineers versus a firm that is run by bureaucrats.
That doesn't mean we degreed engineers don't view them the same way physicians view chiropractors
OMG! LOL!
That is the single most PERFECT description I've ever seen of the difference between degreed engineers and non-degreed. Love it!
As a highway engineer, I really don't have to worry about my job being outsourced. We have lots of folks who come over here from many other countries, but it's extremely difficult to design a road without seeing the locations yourself. Computers are great and can finish our calculations in half the time, but the CAD program can only draw what I tell it to draw. If I draw something that doesn't meet standards, it's crap - and lives could be lost.
My cousin is a teacher and early in our careers I was frustrated with the time it took to get experience. She made an offhand comment that I had a job but not a real career/vocation because what I did didn't directly have an impact on people or the future. HA!! She could not have been more wrong. I'm certain that one intersection I've designed and that was built directly impacts roughly 40,000 people per day.
But I don't consider myself entitled...I have a job, I'm grateful for that job...even if I'm looking for another.
Aerospace Engineer here. The biggest reason why I want to see a "diploma" from a nationally accredited Engineering College is to know the person I am working with has the same fundamental knowledege that that I have. I know the base courses that they have taken and I know they will be able to understand what I am saying on most Engineering related topics. If it is a non-degreed Engineer I'm not going to have a clue to what his knowledge base is. If I have 10 non degreed Engineers I'm working with the variability in their knowledge base is going to be all over the place. One guy may be an expert in Thermodynamics but may know nothing about Materials, or Fluid dynamics. If I was a manager at an aircraft company or some other area that had life safety concerns I don't know if it makes sense to take on the liability of a non degreed Engineer. If it was some area that did not have those concerns the degree really wouldn't matter.
On the other hand I have worked with some non degreed Engineers who were experts in their fields. I still don't know their knowledge base and would have to know them on an individual basis to know what exactly their background was.
I kind of agree with this. If they don't have sufficient professional experience, they suck to work with, the terminology and references just aren't connected. But given enough time they do learn the technical terminology and meanings.
But for my field (computer science) we've found we have to train up the graduates a lot. Some of its our specific field being specialized (server motherboard firmware).
Maybe this is a good comparison:
Non-degreed with 4 years experience:
Missing some of the terminology in odd areas once they leave their area.
Fast learners that can adapt
Degreed:
More balanced education in various areas
Varied interest in the work
Both require training, but different types for each one.
For anything where lives depend on it, I'd say they should always be engineers with degrees. Everything else...well these days I wouldn't hire someone without a degree that didn't have a 6 years of experience with a couple different companies, or a major company. If they have that though, they're golden.
Keep in mind that the loony thought processes you are addressing goes as follows:
Step 1) Accuse anyone who's out of work or underemployed of being "lazy, stupid, and lacking in skills and education."
Step 2) Get angry and frustrated when people prove otherwise.
Step 3) Lash out at everyone who expects their hard work, skills, and education to count for something as "being entitled."
Step 4) Pat one's self on the back while taking full credit for one's own good fortune because "everyone gets what they deserve in life."
It's not just engineers these types hate - they simply despise anyone beneath them socio-economically and believe in a Just World. Don't bother reasoning with them - it won't work.
That describes my ex-best friend perfectly. He is a chemical engineer and omfg I heard about his degree and how valued he was constantly. And how unemployed people are lazy and need to get jobs. I never thought it was an engineer thing, I just thought he had Asperger's or something.
That's what I get from this board and other forums as well. How many of you on here think that many engineers have a sense of entitlement and should absolutely grateful that their jobs are either being outsourced or being taken by people imported from the third-world? For those that do, would you rather American students stop studying STEM entirely and we import everyone to do all of our engineering/scientific/technical work in the country?
Engineers are not "entitled", they just know they have valuable job skills and can generally get the pay and perks that they want.
Also, STEM jobs are some of the few jobs that will be likely immune from the coming job apocalypse brought on by increasing computerization and robotics.
How many of you on here think that many engineers have a sense of entitlement and should absolutely grateful that their jobs are either being outsourced or being taken by people imported from the third-world?
Before you ask this question, can you please elaborate on what your definition of the title "engineer" is?
I know many, many, many Software Engineers, Front End/Back End Engineers, UX/UI Engineers, Experience Engineers, Interaction Engineers, and Database Engineers. Some of them have Computer Science degrees. Some have degrees in French Poetry or Physical Education. Some have high school diplomas. Some never finished high school.
I know a lot of Audio Visual Engineers. Some have ABET accredited degrees at the Bachelor's/Master's, PhD level. Others have high school diplomas or didn't even finish high school. Others have an Associate's. You can get a PhD in "Electronics Engineering" spending 10+ years of your life, or you can spend 2 years and get an Associate's in "Electronics Engineering," and to many, that's exactly the same thing.
So before you ask this question, please tell us what an "engineer" is, because the term is incredibly vague these days. Anyone can call themselves an "engineer." If you make online shopping carts, you're an engineer. If you install car stereos, you're an engineer. If you take apart a toaster and then make a blog entry about it, you're an engineer.
Last edited by Golden_Monkey; 06-04-2014 at 09:37 PM..
I think its the opposite. I'm an engineer, and I think 40 years ago it was right up there with a doctor and lawyer. Not anymore. That being said, if you are in the right company, it can be quite a rewarding life. If not, you can get used and abused. It's all over the place.
And anyone who thinks that anyone can go out an engineering degree for a 4 year school is way off base. Go give it a shot.
I'm a Geotechnical Engineer. We use computer to be more efficient. If you don't know the theory and how the computer program is right, how do you know what the computer is spitting is correct. We have a saying, "If you put in BS, the computer spits out BS!". You have the know theory and use the computer to support you answer.
Location: In a city within a state where politicians come to get their PHDs in Corruption
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I don't think Engineers are entitled brats, but nonetheless Engineers are no picnic to deal with/manage.
Massive brain horsepower, miniscule business acumen.
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