Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
We should absolutely force them to hire felons in appropriate positions. Even though these businesses are understandable acting in their *individual* interests it is harming society, it is harming felons, who can't make a living and must turn to crime again. It's making a new underclass that can never get an advantage in society. If a person can't get a decent job, how do you expect them to not turn to crime again?
I do agree that with low order felonies they should disappear from the records after seven years or so.
You're talking quotas, and I couldn't disagree more with you on those. Whether it's for race, gender, or criminal status.
Most qualified person gets hired. End of statement for me.
Someone convicted of a felony DOES have to prove themselves. I said in a post just a second ago, if you find a criminal who is a success, they have worked at least twice as hard to be a success as anyone else. I fully believe that.
But.. And I admit this.. What i've just said leaves a big hole.. what about the time between when a criminal commits a crime and when they've proven themselves? Pretty big black hole there that I don't have an answer for.
How is a criminal going to prove himself/herself if he/she can't get a job to support himself/herself and reintegrate into society?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Labonte18
You're talking quotas, and I couldn't disagree more with you on those. Whether it's for race, gender, or criminal status.
Most qualified person gets hired. End of statement for me.
Someone convicted of a felony DOES have to prove themselves. I said in a post just a second ago, if you find a criminal who is a success, they have worked at least twice as hard to be a success as anyone else. I fully believe that.
But.. And I admit this.. What i've just said leaves a big hole.. what about the time between when a criminal commits a crime and when they've proven themselves? Pretty big black hole there that I don't have an answer for.
How is a criminal going to prove himself/herself if he/she can't get a job to support himself/herself and reintegrate into society?
A felon can get a job, but they may have to be willing to take what ever crap job they can find at first. It may be dirty work, but at least it is something until they prove themselves and then they can work on finding better.
A felon can get a job, but they may have to be willing to take what ever crap job they can find at first. It may be dirty work, but at least it is something until they prove themselves and then they can work on finding better.
In many places even the crap jobs are getting out of reach. And if it's a place where drug dealing makes so much more money, people *will* choose it. People leave their ideals behind if dealing drugs means making your mother's payments for her medicine.
So if you want ex-felons to integrate, it means opening up "good jobs" that compete with a "return to crime" as long as the specific felon status doesn't affect the job (a bank teller shouldn't be an ex-robber)
In many places even the crap jobs are getting out of reach. And if it's a place where drug dealing makes so much more money, people *will* choose it. People leave their ideals behind if dealing drugs means making your mother's payments for her medicine.
So if you want ex-felons to integrate, it means opening up "good jobs" that compete with a "return to crime" as long as the specific felon status doesn't affect the job (a bank teller shouldn't be an ex-robber)
If the person choose drug dealing because they can make more money, than that still doesn't take away from the fact the could get a job, they choose not to because they want fast money.
If the said felon chooses to change their life around and work hard, even if it means for crap pay at first they can. It is a choice. Choices do not equate no being possible.
If the person choose drug dealing because they can make more money, than that still doesn't take away from the fact the could get a job, they choose not to because they want fast money.
If the said felon chooses to change their life around and work hard, even if it means for crap pay at first they can. It is a choice. Choices do not equate no being possible.
The more you blame little people for the policies made by the big people, the longer you promote their suffering.
You put yourself in a position where your family is dirt poor and your mother's teeth are falling out. Your buddies work in the drug trade; they are driving nice cars and throwing money in your face. Your mother can't chew food. Girls don't want to be with you. Your mother's teeth are now gone and she has to eat Gerber baby food. Your fast food job will NEVER get your respect or enough money to pay for your mother's teeth. Are you surprised that you will turn to crime? So are you still going to blame the little people?
"If the said felon chooses to change their life around and work hard, even if it means for crap pay at first they can. " - Unless someone is very, very, very resourceful and clever (maybe through the construction industry) telling a felon "you can choose to change their life around and work hard, even if it means for crap pay at first" you will be lying to him. The companies, until a "felon quota" is established, will always be choosing non-felons over him thanks to the job market. The lady who wrote "Orange is the New Black" acknowledged she was lucky because her friends had a job created for her once she finished serving her sentence. Poor people don't have these friends and prisons are poorhouses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest
Yes, when a criminal conducts a felony, it doesn't just hurt the victim(s). It hurts society as a whole. It is a selfish act.
Not always true. In many drug offenses it's truly victimless, or if there is a cost (say a drug addict getting arrested for simple possession) the costs are things the government is responsible for. For instance, if the government tries to shut down meth labs in the US, it means the guys are getting it from Mexico instead. You know what happens in Mexico. Are the druggies responsible, then, for the drug cartels' behavior? No, it's the government forcing them to do choose the drug cartel product. And if you think people should give up all drugs, that's Prohibitionist behavior and we know that's Bee Esss.
The criminal justice system, in fact, is hurting minor criminals by forcing them to go to prison, where they get raped, or learn how to be better criminals... AND they get a criminal record that prevents them from getting jobs that can compete with illegal ones. They MUST turn to crime to make a decent living.
The problem with your post is that you're putting too much responsibility on the "little people" who go through the criminal justice system. The problem isn't with the little people, NJBest. The problem is with the powerful people who make the policies.
The more you blame little people for the policies made by the big people, the longer you promote their suffering.
You put yourself in a position where your family is dirt poor and your mother's teeth are falling out. Your buddies work in the drug trade; they are driving nice cars and throwing money in your face. Your mother can't chew food. Girls don't want to be with you. Your mother's teeth are now gone and she has to eat Gerber baby food. Your fast food job will NEVER get your respect or enough money to pay for your mother's teeth. Are you surprised that you will turn to crime? So are you still going to blame the little people?
"If the said felon chooses to change their life around and work hard, even if it means for crap pay at first they can. " - Unless someone is very, very, very resourceful and clever (maybe through the construction industry) telling a felon "you can choose to change their life around and work hard, even if it means for crap pay at first" you will be lying to him. The companies, until a "felon quota" is established, will always be choosing non-felons over him thanks to the job market. The lady who wrote "Orange is the New Black" acknowledged she was lucky because her friends had a job created for her once she finished serving her sentence. Poor people don't have these friends and prisons are poorhouses.
no one is blaming anyone. Again, you are proving my point it is a choice. I am not saying it is a lucrative choice, but a choice none the less.
No I wouldn't be lying to him, just because I know for a fact they can turn their life around, it may take many years, but it is possible. Maybe it is people like you, who are telling the felons they can not make it in society, are the ones truly holding them back and preventing them from succeeding.
And yes construction is one way, the labor unions will take felons. other big companies like caterpillar will hire felons.
It's not a real choice because the optimal choice: a legal job that is something that is, or is the path to: paying enough to give the mother her teeth and a comfortable life, doesn't exist. People are stuck between an illegal job and pitiful wages with no respect, not enough to get ahead, and knowledge that promises of a better life are for naught. Somebody posted on why so many Mexicans join the drug cartels (I forget where the post was) but it all comes down to this: it's a choice between poverty and... money. You know being poor in Mexico is no joke. Increasingly it's the same north of the border.
Put yourself in their shoes. Do you want to be poor and disrespected? Would you be able to stand it? There was a novel that is set in Philadelphia in the 1990s and it talks about how the kids who deal drugs show off their sneakers and buy expensive pizza slices. This is in a neighborhood with desperate poverty.
So when you say "am not saying it is a lucrative choice, but a choice none the less. " - that's making it look nice. It's a terrible dead-end nowheresville "choice".
I used to think like that: it's just a choice, they can choose to be honest but poor and virtuous. But as I've found the job market being squeezed and healthcare costs rising, as I've understood that the leaders of the United States could sharply cut down on the drug trade, death/etc if they wanted to through legalizing weed and/or allowing domestic drug production to occur so people don't have to buy from the Mexicans or Colombians, I've realized it's the government that has the real responsibility. We can't count on people making individual choices to abstain from drugs. It will never happen.
Quote:
No I wouldn't be lying to him, just because I know for a fact they can turn their life around, it may take many years, but it is possible. Maybe it is people like you, who are telling the felons they can not make it in society, are the ones truly holding them back and preventing them from succeeding.
Do you have a constructive plan on how to get the felon a job? The felon is going get rejection notices again and again. Anyway, I don't think that's an accurate assessment of my feelings. I wouldn't tell a felon: "they can not make it in society so give up" - That's not what I say.
I would say this: "You keep getting rejection notices because you sold pot when you were 18 and the other guys have clean records. You're out of prison but they aren't helping you get a job. Society is punishing you for something that's victimless. So... are you going to give up? No. You're going to band together with other felons and you are going to embarrass the **** out of society. Make it ashamed, make the people who vote tough-on-crime look like fools. Form a felon association that ONLY gives jobs to felons. Lobby and kick society's balls until it gives you the jobs you deserve!"
Any questions???
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhawkins74
no one is blaming anyone. Again, you are proving my point it is a choice. I am not saying it is a lucrative choice, but a choice none the less.
No I wouldn't be lying to him, just because I know for a fact they can turn their life around, it may take many years, but it is possible. Maybe it is people like you, who are telling the felons they can not make it in society, are the ones truly holding them back and preventing them from succeeding.
And yes construction is one way, the labor unions will take felons. other big companies like caterpillar will hire felons.
It's not a real choice because the optimal choice: a legal job that is something that is, or is the path to: paying enough to give the mother her teeth and a comfortable life, doesn't exist. People are stuck between an illegal job and pitiful wages with no respect, not enough to get ahead, and knowledge that promises of a better life are for naught. Somebody posted on why so many Mexicans join the drug cartels (I forget where the post was) but it all comes down to this: it's a choice between poverty and... money. You know being poor in Mexico is no joke. Increasingly it's the same north of the border.
Put yourself in their shoes. Do you want to be poor and disrespected? Would you be able to stand it? There was a novel that is set in Philadelphia in the 1990s and it talks about how the kids who deal drugs show off their sneakers and buy expensive pizza slices. This is in a neighborhood with desperate poverty.
So when you say "am not saying it is a lucrative choice, but a choice none the less. " - that's making it look nice. It's a terrible dead-end nowheresville "choice".
I used to think like that: it's just a choice, they can choose to be honest but poor and virtuous. But as I've found the job market being squeezed and healthcare costs rising, as I've understood that the leaders of the United States could sharply cut down on the drug trade, death/etc if they wanted to through legalizing weed and/or allowing domestic drug production to occur so people don't have to buy from the Mexicans or Colombians, I've realized it's the government that has the real responsibility. We can't count on people making individual choices to abstain from drugs. It will never happen.
Do you have a constructive plan on how to get the felon a job? The felon is going get rejection notices again and again. Anyway, I don't think that's an accurate assessment of my feelings. I wouldn't tell a felon: "they can not make it in society so give up" - That's not what I say.
I would say this: "You keep getting rejection notices because you sold pot when you were 18 and the other guys have clean records. You're out of prison but they aren't helping you get a job. Society is punishing you for something that's victimless. So... are you going to give up? No. You're going to band together with other felons and you are going to embarrass the **** out of society. Make it ashamed, make the people who vote tough-on-crime look like fools. Form a felon association that ONLY gives jobs to felons. Lobby and kick society's balls until it gives you the jobs you deserve!"
Any questions???
Nope no questions, you are part of the problem, not the solution. You are wanting felons to believe they are victims to society and the government.
I have given many felons jobs.. why? because I have 3 felony convictions. I know what it is like when getting out. After 2 bits and 3 convictions it was rough. But because I wouldn't play the victim, I did what I had to, and have now made a success in life. I have seen others I was locked up with do the same thing. It can be done, but it is a choice, if someone wants to get out of a life of crime they can do it, even if it isn't the optimal choice at that time, but with hard work and dedication it will pay off in the long run
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
