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As for the bolded one, these can't be be proved during the interview let alone your resume. The hiring manager don't know you in the first place. You can put all these "hardworking monster, high level of work ethics, excellent communication skills" in your resume but hiring manager will put minimum emphasis on these. Years of experience, educational attainment, technical knowhow on programs/platforms needed for the job, will be weighted higher.
did you read the full thread? you've taken my answer out of context.
I am seeing a whole lot of lack of interest in "educational attainment" from the hiring companies, though. If experience is good, they go for the mark.
Naturally, if you're an engineer, a doctor, an attorney - one of the specialty jobs, it is a must, otherwise... not so much.
Both are important. Getting a job involves multiple stages:
1) getting them to notice you so that you get an email back to schedule an interview - for this, your degree is important. many times sourcers will discard your resume if you don't meeting basic requirements (# of years of experience, degrees required, etc.). most requirements are not hard requirements so with your high # of years of experience they may overlook the degree requirement but if there are similar candidates that do have degrees, then they will be contacted first. in my case, i have degrees from top schools and the degrees open doors for me at pretty much any company that i am interested in applying to. however, my degrees don't help me much after initially getting in the door to get an interview...
2) job interview - if you make it to the interview, you may do well because you have a lot of experience so you've seen it all. however, sometimes interviews are more about theory and in those cases, you might not do so well because your foundation is built on experience, not core knowledge. you can probably wing it and get the job done but they may not want that.
3) actual job performance - i hire engineers and there is a big difference between an engineer who has a CS degree from a top school vs one who learned on the job. The latter can usually get the job done but the former usually writes better code that lasts a long time. in your case, your experience is probably more valuable than textbook knowledge since a lot of accounting is based on GAAP so there are real world standards and practices that most companies follow...these are best known through experience.
Getting a degree 20 years later probably won't help much.
Experience > Degrees IMO BUT --if you have 20 years experience and no degree, and you're going up against someone with 20 years and a bachelors who do you think will be chosen 9/10 times?
Also, in a field like medical you NEED a degree. So I guess it depends on the field you are in. Heck, my uncle is a VP at Microsoft and doesn't have a degree at all.
I cannot speak for the US, but in Holland degrees matter because too many people without a degree fail to lack the understandig of what they are doing. They have learned some tricks, but never mastered the theory behind their jobs. And that is the accounting field I am referring to.
Sure there are exceptions, but once bitten twice shy. So a degree gives a certain amount of safety for an employer with regards to the knowledge and abilities of an applicant.
I'm finding more and more that a BA/BS isn't even enough. A lot of jobs now are requiring a Masters to get hired, even though there's no reason whatsoever the job would require one. The reason is, there are a lot of underemployed over-educated people who went and got MBA's and companies know they can get these people.
My boss told me point blank she wouldn't promote me because I don't have my Masters, even though I know for a fact there is no actual requirement for one to move up to that level. This is just her trying to justify the importance of her degree. At the same time, she's encouraged me to pursue it, but honestly in my mid-40's I can't possibly see the cost-benefit of doing it, both from a cost perspective and a work-life perspective. I don't want to take on a pile of loan debt at my age, or spend that time away from my family or things I WANT to be doing.
I say experience trumps degree for the most part, now yes there are some fields where a degree is absolutely required (for instance you will not hire a person with a history major as a nurse unless he/she went back to school and got their nursing degree). Overall however my observations have been that degrees are large perfunctory, that is having it for the sake of having, something to check off in the box when you are filling out that online job application.
The challenge for the post grad job seeker is gaining that experience in the first place when your degree is seen as "meh", less than desirable, useless by the employer. However if you are able to gain that experience, it does make the job hunt easier.
I guess this is an old thread, but I'll add my two cents. Yes, in general experience is far more valuable than a degree. However, certain fields and certain job titles require degrees and high level accounting positions such as what the OP is applying for are positions where you really can't get hired without a 4 year degree.
In particular, the OP is applying for jobs with the title of Controller, which means that the person in that position is in charge of all the accounting functions within a company. Controller positions, except maybe in areas of low population, generally tend to be filled by CPAs. In order to obtain a CPA, you have to have a minimum of a 4 year degree and more than that in many states. People hiring for controller positions are going to look first for a CPA with experience and then if they can't find that a BS/BA with experience and if they can't find that, then they would start looking at candidates like the OP. With the job market the way it is, employers can find all the Controller candidates they need among the CPAs and BS candidates that apply so that's why the OP isn't getting much response.
The OP got lucky and thru hard work was able to work himself into a job title that likely he was not truly qualified for. Usually, CPAs have a number of years of public or private accounting experience with a variety of companies before they move into a Controller position and employers are going to feel this is better experience for a Controller role than just working your way up in a accounting department of one company. The experience a CPA gets in public or private accounting prepares them for a Controller position far better than much of the OP's experience would. The fact is that for this type of position, all experience is not created equal. The OP's 20 years of experience is worth a lot less than 20 years for the types of positions being applied for.
Last edited by patches403; 01-07-2015 at 11:18 AM..
Reason: grammer
I am hoping this thread will be a valid debate and not some p***ing contest where anyone attacks anyone else for their views. Here's my quick and short-version story: I am 42 with 20 years experience in accounting. I hold only an AA Degree, as there originally was no university in my area to complete a BA and once there was, I did not have the funding to go back and complete it and I had already been in my field for 15 years. The degree had not been an issue in finding employment as I lived in a small town and county. However, then I moved to the Big City and BAM - now I struggle to find employment. A long time ago, I worked hard to work my way up in 6 years from A/P clerk to Controller. I worked as a Controller for 10 years and now without the BA Degree I struggle to get an interview. Now, I am working so obviously work is out there but for every 50 or so jobs apply for, I maybe hear back from 1, maybe.
So, how does 2 additional years of school completely wipe out and invalidate 20 years of experience? This is not whining; this is a valid question open for debate. I know I am not the only person experiencing this. Now - this is frustration and NOT a sense of entitlement. If it was between me and someone else with the same experience but they had the higher degree then yes, I can see that person being hired over me. However, my frustration is with the person with the higher degree and only 4 years experience being hired. I can't even get the interview with 20 years' experience!
Here is my other question, and this is thinking a little outside box, but with major concentration classes aside, the additional two years of school makes for a more well-rounded person, right? I say that 20 years of experience makes for a much better rounded person. In my experience as an accountant, I have also been in charge of human resources and I/T, so in my 20 years, in a real-world way, I have been quite literally experiencing and learning on a daily basis sociology, psychology, interpersonal communications, speech, economics, finance and even geography, statistics and logistics, and on a much greater level than I ever learned in any school.
Am I the only person who thinks this way? I have been a hiring manager and I have always kept this in mind when hiring. No doubt, seeing an applicant with a degree is a plus but it is not the only factor. I will take quality experience and personality any day over a degree with limited experience. I understand that in big cities there is an abundance of applicants, but some of the best people I have hired have been the ones without the major degree. I truly believe people with great experience are worth interviewing.
Now I know this will surely bring on lots of different responses. Again, this is meant to be a valid debate regarding degree v. experience. Lets weed out things such as: some companies want to hire young people right out of college to mold them, etc. This is not what I am looking for. I have even heard one person state that "degrees weed out lazy people" - I'm hoping to not see this type of ignorant attitude. Both lack of funding and life circumstance can keep people from attaining a college degree at any given time in life. Let's keep this professional and I look forward to your responses.
Big cities will show no MERCY if you don't have a degree. Most times I see it as a smoke-screen to weed out people without a degree; only to hire someone with no experience with a degree. WTF? It happens all the time, and I think honestly it boils down in how they can "mold" you into what they want instead of someone over 40 with years of experience (been there done that attitude).
Is it fair? Nope, but when I looked for work, I would look at a company's about page. If everyone in the picture looked under the age of 30, you could forget that job.
Whatever you do, don't give up. There will be a company out there that actually values experience because you can sit down and get to work, rather than hiring a newbie and then have to "hold their hands" until they pick it up. Not sure what sense that makes, but it is what it is.
Good luck!
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