Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Work and Employment
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-22-2015, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Florida
2,026 posts, read 2,752,156 times
Reputation: 1382

Advertisements

I do some very complex work, I mentor mu colleagues whom some of them are 10-15y older than me. I as a hardware designer complete twice as many projects in a given number of years than any of my peers, and those are normally the most complex ones as well. My designs don't come back from series production with all kinds of problems like al my peers' projects do. Sill my salary is around 20% less than theirs, or 20% less than the average. They consider people's contribution too, at about 2% of the salary, but about 20% is determined based on years of experience khmm... employment. Twice as much work done for 20% less money. I believe a monkey could measure every employee's years of employment, but that is not that much of a factor for work getting done.

I questioned this recently with my boss, and he explained that HR puts every employee into 2-3 year wide "years of experience" brackets, while what they really measure is years of employment. I saw the table of the "experience" brackets. If an incompetent (or at best mediocre) guy is in bracket "n", and a very talented expert who (studies a lot to keep up to date and completed 2x as many successful projects in his career) is in bracket "n-1", then the first guy will surely receive a higher salary. At least at this company. This is in the Silicon Valley.

There are 2 problems with this:
1. different people gain different amount of real experience over the same number of years.
2. They don't consider any projects completed as university research or hobby electronics, because I was not receiving a salary for those. Those projects were not even low-end, but higher.

What do you think?
Do all companies hardwire these ranges?
Do all companies do compensation based on years of employment, or are there companies who compensate based more on contribution and less based on years of employment?
I thought this country was a capitalist country, maybe I was wrong?
What is a corporation for? To make profit, or something else that I am not aware of?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-22-2015, 06:03 PM
 
Location: East Bay, San Francisco Bay Area
23,331 posts, read 23,730,329 times
Reputation: 23734
I also work in Silicon Valley and can tell you, that every company is different.

Some companies base salaries on years of experience and others based it on contribution and value added to the company.
Generally though, in the Valley, most companies will base it on contribution and the value a person adds to the company.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-22-2015, 06:39 PM
 
Location: TN/NC
34,864 posts, read 30,962,553 times
Reputation: 47205
Some places it's based on seniority. If you don't like it, find an employer that seems to value performance more.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-22-2015, 07:22 PM
 
Location: East of Seattle since 1992, 615' Elevation, Zone 8b - originally from SF Bay Area
44,203 posts, read 80,369,332 times
Reputation: 57070
When a company has salary range brackets, They may be extend the top end every few years by 2-3%, but also have an annual performance or longevity based increase. If someone has been there 10-15 years and you just started, I would expect them to make at least 20% more than you. Pay increases with experience are what keep people there, but also, new people haven't proven themselves over time. Just a few good projects doesn't always mean they will end up being a valuable employee, many over 10 years is worth rewarding. For those like you that don't find that fair, you need to look for another place that offers pay strictly on the basis of production.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-22-2015, 07:46 PM
 
Location: Montana
1,829 posts, read 2,224,216 times
Reputation: 6225
Quote:
Originally Posted by buenos View Post
I do some very complex work, I mentor mu colleagues whom some of them are 10-15y older than me. I as a hardware designer complete twice as many projects in a given number of years than any of my peers, and those are normally the most complex ones as well. My designs don't come back from series production with all kinds of problems like al my peers' projects do. Sill my salary is around 20% less than theirs, or 20% less than the average. They consider people's contribution too, at about 2% of the salary, but about 20% is determined based on years of experience khmm... employment. Twice as much work done for 20% less money. I believe a monkey could measure every employee's years of employment, but that is not that much of a factor for work getting done.

I questioned this recently with my boss, and he explained that HR puts every employee into 2-3 year wide "years of experience" brackets, while what they really measure is years of employment. I saw the table of the "experience" brackets. If an incompetent (or at best mediocre) guy is in bracket "n", and a very talented expert who (studies a lot to keep up to date and completed 2x as many successful projects in his career) is in bracket "n-1", then the first guy will surely receive a higher salary. At least at this company. This is in the Silicon Valley.

There are 2 problems with this:
1. different people gain different amount of real experience over the same number of years.
2. They don't consider any projects completed as university research or hobby electronics, because I was not receiving a salary for those. Those projects were not even low-end, but higher.

What do you think?
Do all companies hardwire these ranges?
Do all companies do compensation based on years of employment, or are there companies who compensate based more on contribution and less based on years of employment?
I thought this country was a capitalist country, maybe I was wrong?
What is a corporation for? To make profit, or something else that I am not aware of?
To answer your questions at the bottom, I think that it is the position level that the salaries are tied to, but many companies create a somewhat artificial "experience level" before they consider a promotion to a given position - effectively creating a seniority based system, even though it technically isn't supposed to be one.

I have one son who has been "managed" past the HR bubba's by a very senior VP, and is working in his early thirtees in positions where most of his peers are my age (mid 50's).

He has spotted problems in design (Aerospace) twice now (pre-production) that got through the engineering process, and saved the company tens of millions in retooling/retrofitting expenses that would have been required to correct the problem after the fact - if it went to production. He also brought in a $30M contract (the company said "We'll give you the contract but only if you garuantee that xxxxx xxxxx is the lead engineer.")

HR has thrown up every road block they could to slow down his progress (crabs in a bucket syndrome), but that's why mentors are so danged important!

My other son has been promised promotions that don't come. He finally pushed, because his performance was acknowledged at three levels above his boss (corporate HQ), and was told that there's a track, and he can't jump it, all previous promises aside.

He is scheduled for his third interveiw with a competitor with a two level jump in responsibility, and a 50% increase in pay.

We do live in a capitalist society and business, in agregate, is a meritocracy, but sometimes you have to have a friend, and sometimes you have to make the jump to take full advantage of the system.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-22-2015, 07:48 PM
 
12,101 posts, read 17,009,203 times
Reputation: 15764
Most larger established companies have an established step promotion system.

You cannot promote somebody who has 3 years of experience past somebody who has 15 years of experience. This would promote all kinds of mutiny, back stabbing, throwing under the bus, etc.

You cannot advance a step quicker than a year in my company, yet there's still backstabbing. Imagine how bad it would be if you could make it all the way up to managerial level at age 25.

Once you get into a management level position here, which takes at least 8-10 years, THEN it starts to separate. Those who bring in more money and clients and those with better connections move up faster and make more money. At that point, you will be rewarded.

I don't like everything a lot of things about my company but I really like their step promotion model.

It fosters more of a TEAM attitude than, "I'm better than you I deserve to get paid more."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-22-2015, 08:34 PM
 
Location: Florida
2,026 posts, read 2,752,156 times
Reputation: 1382
The problem with praising the team too much is that half the team members don't contribute anything to the outcome, some of them even cause like 100k-10M damage every year. And in the same time some of these non-contributors receive a higher salary. I'm from Hungary, we used to have communism there. People used to say (to good friends behind closed doors) that everyone is equal, except a few who are more equal. These more equal ones were the communist party functionaries who didn't do any real work, but through their status they were entitled to a bigger share. Yes, entitlement is the good word for this. There are too many entitled people.

I talked to some people, went on some interviews in the past few years, and I see this HR salary brackets and the obsession with years of employment. Yes, we have position brackets. I think for technical non-manager positions to get to the top, they are enforcing a minimum 13-15 year rule, but most people having that long employment (at any competitor) will actually get the title. So, in the first 15y of a career, even if you are the best there is no chance to get a fist class seat, and if you are old enough then 50-50% which is little effort. They also keep talking about high achievers on company meetings, but that is just empty propaganda.

It is not just employment at the current company. They higher someone 50yo and give him a highest salary because he was employed as certain titles at certain other companies for 25 years. Then, if the guy is proven useless after 2 years, no problem, he stays and gets almost the same raise as high contributors.

I know most people don't like when their co-worker progresses faster in his career, even a bunch of people volunteer to stop the guy at all costs. In one case a "friend" took me out for lunch, and the whole time he tried to convince me that it is completely ok that younger engineers get less, since they worth less and inexperienced, bla bla...
But then, shouldn't the backstabbers be eliminated instead of the high achievers? Many companies' senior management has lost sight of the original goals, or their agendas are incompatible with the shareholders' interests. Probably they don't want to deal with the dirty non-exec people or with anything happening below the heavens.

########
So, how do I find out which company has a salary bracket system or seniority-dominant system, and which one has a merit-dominant system? Is it not some kind of law that they have to have a seniority system? I think the Department of Labour has very detailed guidelines for seniority, years of exp..ployment, titles...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-22-2015, 10:28 PM
 
881 posts, read 1,810,920 times
Reputation: 1224
Quote:
Originally Posted by buenos View Post
So, how do I find out which company has a salary bracket system or seniority-dominant system, and which one has a merit-dominant system? Is it not some kind of law that they have to have a seniority system? I think the Department of Labour has very detailed guidelines for seniority, years of exp..ployment, titles...
The Department of Labor does not deal with that. You might want to actually read up on what the Department of Labor does. California Labor and Workforce Development Agency & http://www.dol.gov/opa/aboutdol/lawsprog.htm

I have been in Silicon Valley for 15 years. There are "experience" guideline associated with roles/titles at the companies. It's almost always unenforced, used mostly for job postings. You can be hired into/promoted to a higher role with less years of experience and you might not get promoted despite having the number of years.

Be proactive and ask your manager what it will take to be promoted to the next level. And document them at your annual review as goal for the next year, achieve and exceed it. Stop focusing on so much what level/salary your colleagues are at or should be at. Focus on your own work instead of getting involved in work place drama.

Or if you think you are undervalued, underpaid, find another job else where.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-22-2015, 11:40 PM
 
Location: Florida
2,026 posts, read 2,752,156 times
Reputation: 1382
Quote:
Originally Posted by gnomatic View Post
I have been in Silicon Valley for 15 years. There are "experience" guideline associated with roles/titles at the companies. It's almost always unenforced, used mostly for job postings. You can be hired into/promoted to a higher role with less years of experience and you might not get promoted despite having the number of years.

Be proactive and ask your manager what it will take to be promoted to the next level. And document them at your annual review as goal for the next year, achieve and exceed it..
Just talked to my manager about it, he said HR barely approves my current title based on my years of exp...ployment. My successful projects... those are nice, but my years are not impressive, so come back in 5-10 years. Keep contributing 2x the average for the next few years, and after that they may set my salary to a level an average guy's salary.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gnomatic View Post
Or if you think you are undervalued, underpaid, find another job else where.
Where?
I mean I don't want to try every company to find one where they have a real merit system. I have to find out which ones have it. How do I find that out?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-23-2015, 07:42 AM
 
12,101 posts, read 17,009,203 times
Reputation: 15764
Quote:
Originally Posted by buenos View Post
The problem with praising the team too much is that half the team members don't contribute anything to the outcome, some of them even cause like 100k-10M damage every year. And in the same time some of these non-contributors receive a higher salary. I'm from Hungary, we used to have communism there. People used to say (to good friends behind closed doors) that everyone is equal, except a few who are more equal. These more equal ones were the communist party functionaries who didn't do any real work, but through their status they were entitled to a bigger share. Yes, entitlement is the good word for this. There are too many entitled people.

I talked to some people, went on some interviews in the past few years, and I see this HR salary brackets and the obsession with years of employment. Yes, we have position brackets. I think for technical non-manager positions to get to the top, they are enforcing a minimum 13-15 year rule, but most people having that long employment (at any competitor) will actually get the title. So, in the first 15y of a career, even if you are the best there is no chance to get a fist class seat, and if you are old enough then 50-50% which is little effort. They also keep talking about high achievers on company meetings, but that is just empty propaganda.

It is not just employment at the current company. They higher someone 50yo and give him a highest salary because he was employed as certain titles at certain other companies for 25 years. Then, if the guy is proven useless after 2 years, no problem, he stays and gets almost the same raise as high contributors.

I know most people don't like when their co-worker progresses faster in his career, even a bunch of people volunteer to stop the guy at all costs. In one case a "friend" took me out for lunch, and the whole time he tried to convince me that it is completely ok that younger engineers get less, since they worth less and inexperienced, bla bla...
But then, shouldn't the backstabbers be eliminated instead of the high achievers? Many companies' senior management has lost sight of the original goals, or their agendas are incompatible with the shareholders' interests. Probably they don't want to deal with the dirty non-exec people or with anything happening below the heavens.

########
So, how do I find out which company has a salary bracket system or seniority-dominant system, and which one has a merit-dominant system? Is it not some kind of law that they have to have a seniority system? I think the Department of Labour has very detailed guidelines for seniority, years of exp..ployment, titles...
Of course, in hypothetical City Data, yes all these things happen.

The way you say it, it's like you've never had a job in your life.

It's not black and white. It's a mix. Somebody with 5 years of experience cannot be a Vice President and somebody with 20 years of experience who isn't too competent or ambitious will be stuck at a plateued position which has a salary cap.

I've met people who are close to retirement that don't make much more than me because they are capped near my position, which is mid level.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Work and Employment
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top