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I think college is WAY too expensive. I think establishing themselves in a trade first so they can be making money, then going to school part time is a much more efficient way to go about things. I do encourage you to consider their skills, talents and gifts. There may be more out there than you're considering. Welding; running cable for IT; pole climbing for electrical; specialized masonry like cement stamping/staining, block retaining walls, or skilled tile work; what about stained glass/specialized window and door installation? There is so much out there. People are doing a lot of remodel work today. The basic trades, HVAC, plumbing, electrical, structural (carpentry, roofing) are still great trades.
One problem we see is the illegal immigrants who get the work over licensed tradesmen because they do it for pennies on the dollar. That's another topic.
At least you're saying that you've experienced it firsthand and it's what you want for your own children, as opposed to those who have no experience in it and are very quick to suggest it for the children of others, but *never* their own. I will say the decision to financially support them through trade school is interesting based on your fairly restrictive vision of masculinity. Usually, I've found that people with your mentality also believe that men take care of themselves once they're 18 and boys take checks from daddy to their landlord. Additionally, you have to be aware that a young tradesman is going to be just as inclined to party throughout their early 20s as a college kid, especially with unconventional hours/shifts/overtime levels and a lot of money for his age. I will also ask you, OP, if you had a daughter, would you also suggest the trades for her, or would you be okay with her doing one of those jobs you don't really respect?
Trade school is a good idea. More men should be going into trade based occupations. There are too many Bachelor's and Master's degree holders out there.
Agreed. There are people that should have gone to trade school instead of college. But this is not a reason to force someone into trade school regardless of their passion and capabilities.
You know I tell me 9 year old son that wants to own a trucking company like his uncle, that I want him to graduate college when he gets older, not because there is anything wrong with owning a trucking company, but that I want my son to have as many options in life as possible. Sending a kid to trade school may be a great idea for some kids, it may be a horrible idea for others, but deciding for them is just showing how ignorant some people can be.
The OP reminds me of my father in law, he sure was unhappy when he found out that I was white collar, he had worked construction his whole life and saw no value in white collar type work for men. That is until he got to know me, you see I grew up in a blue collar family, my step father worked in the oil fields and rebuilds classic cars for himself and as a business, so I was working in a body shop at 10 years old. I also have family that are truck drivers, landscapers, HVAC installers, and both sets of my grandparents were farmers. My father in law realized he had no clue about me when his daughter, my then girlfriend had a major issue with her car, I pulled it into my step dads shop and had it running perfect and back on the road within days. It really opened his eyes when a few months later some things caught up to him with the IRS, and I was able to sit down and fix his problem over a weekend.
I have 4 half brothers, and 3 of the 4 work blue collar jobs, and enjoy it. My parents always encouraged us to do what we were good at and at least somewhat enjoyed, they always wanted me to go into law or accounting, as I was good at talking to people and with numbers. I enjoy being an accountant, but realize that I am no better than my brothers, parents, grandparents, and all the other blue collar workers I grew up around. I hate to rebuild cars, I hate doing landscaping, I am bored out of my mind after 2 days in a tractor, I hate dealing with traffic all day, however I can and have done all of them enough to draw a paycheck doing it for someone else. If the market collapsed today I would be fine, but in the OP eyes I am just an accountant.
Of course that is not even looking at what an accountant really does, I work with many of those types who are paying blue collar workers their wages. I am the one that the small business owners come to trying to figure out how to keep control of their finances, how to save money on taxes and keep more money, how to cut costs so they do not get into financial trouble, where to find more money to hire more guys, and that is not even talking about the marketing questions, the management questions, the HR type questions that I am asked all the time. I keep the owners writing your checks in compliance allowing them to continue to employ blue collar workers that think they are better than those of us who know our mind is our most important tool and muscle.
Without a college degree, your sons will be destined to a life of "jobs" rather than a life with a "career". Jobs pay less. Careers, whether you believe they are valuable or not, will likely pay more.
I didn't graduate from college. As a result, rather than use my brain I had to use my body.
My wife graduated and went on to get her Master's...in that lowly position of "Accountant".
I got paid hourly. Construction/"trade" jobs pay well for hourly wages... but I still made 3X LESS than my wife per hour and in most of those labor-based jobs...there are NO percs...insurance...or retirement funds included in the mix. Toss in the BENEFITS and my wife easily makes 4-5X what I can make swinging a hammer or doing most any other "trade-related" job here.
And her job has never been affected by the economy or per capitas or layoffs/etc. 30 years of continuous employment.
Me on the other hand... inconsistent employment...seasonal employment...budgetary layoffs....etc..etc.etc. NO benefits EVER.... jus that "hourly" wage thing... (I'm over it...LOL)
She never worried about "illegals". She had an education and a job that came via that education they didn't have.
I, like you, had jobs that were seriously impacted by the influx of workers from elsewhere. (legal or not, when it BOOMS, they come) This is NOT a concern in my wife's profession. Even white folks/citizens cannot do her job without the education required to do so.
We let our boys decide what they wanted to do. They both went to college. We paid for it because, in our opinion, that is OUR job as parents.
As always....everyone sees it differently. I wish you/yours all the best.
But I mean, what does a business analyst actually create for the world? Hands on kind of work has been useful since the beginning of time. Office work is essentially manipulating numbers. They can do whatever they want as adults. But i just won't pay for it. If they went to West Point or the police academy it's one thing but to do something like a business degree its phooey. Engineering too, I have worked with engineers and they essentially just draw things and we build them. I just hate the idea of wearing a suit and tie and sitting at a desk it's not how a free man lives. Again they can do whatever they want but college is expensive and they won't qualify for aid and I won't put loans up..
And what's wrong with a GED? A HS diploma is what? After reading, writing and arithmetic most school things are pointless.
Um...where do I start.
Business analysts determine the market conditions for businesses. What's a business? Government, non profits and private sector for starters. It isn't really about creating "things". Office work determines decision making because like it or not most jobs these days are thinking jobs rather then just physical.
Drawing things and building them that's a really simplified way of saying things. CAD programs can be pretty daunting. Take a look at AutoCAD. Understanding angles, weights, densities, reflections, chemistry, physics, costs of procurement time this all factors into the design.
What's wrong with a GED? Well states have standardized tests to graduate vs the past. So a GED means you did not pass the regents in NY or the TASS in Texas or the MCAS in Mass. States created standardized tests in order to establish equality of valuating students from poorer and richer areas. GED is a test on a 6th grade level. Sure if someone dropped out of high school then it is a must. But to take the GED instead of graduating high school or a vocational school for that matter is utterly stupid.
"You can never get back those 4 years in college when you could be working, meeting a girl, getting married, buying a home, instead you spend 4 years listening to people who are paid to think about their opinion and teach it."
Huh? You do understand that most employers want some form of education or training before they hire someone...right? Meeting a girl? Many meet while at higher ed as relationships at work are not the brightest thing in the world. Getting married in your early 20's again isn't the brightest. At least wait until say 25 or so. I don't know about you but marriage before you can legally drink might not be a good idea.
"I mean in the scheme of things lets say tomorrow there was a horrible disaster and you were cut off from society. Someone with hands on skills could build something, someone with a degree can do your taxes but that's just pushing paper it's not real"
Skills of what though. Thanks to the economic change frankly it is not that expensive now to take up woodworking on your own or welding etc. Home Depot and Lowe's employ hundreds of thousands in thousands of stores for a reason and it isn't just disasters.
The reason why empirical knowledge and facts are valued is because things were already accomplished before. How does a factory create wealth? Mass production only has value to the producer not the consumer because the marginal costs these days keep dropping.
There's nothing wrong with learning a trade but unless you own it and know how to do the marketing and finance of it then you still working for someone else. Nothing wrong with a business education as I know people that tried to run organization with it and it closed in a year. As for factories my father, his father and his father worked at the same one. It's been closed for decades if not a generation now. I live in a old factory that closed in the late 70s (it's now apartments obviously). Much of the northeast is filled with old factories and mills that closed when business moved further south. Of course we can still make things but mass production without accounting for quality (Six Sigma) is not a good idea to day.
People I do know in manufacturing generally teach it (auto mechanics) or are engineers (drug company and exploration (seas and space)). Factories are largely automated so if it makes something then it is isn't hand made. If you want to lower the costs of education attend a two year before a four year school, test out of various subjects https://clep.collegeboard.org/ You can also take classes in the summer and winter to avoid tuition increases a bit. You don't need to spend six figures.
I make a good living in a blue collar field. Got my GED at 17 and got a trade certificate. Have worked for myself, big companies, small companies and now will be managing a construction crew.
I have twin boys in grade school, and to be honest I would be a little bummed if they went into an office job or anything academic besides maybe a physician. I know that accountants and such are needed, but for some reason I just think in the grand scheme of things, jobs where you sit at a desk and play with numbers and where a tie are less repectable than people who actually use their physical skills. When your build something you're actually creating something tangible. I would encourage my kids to not go to college and instead do a trade, go work in a factory etc. I think those kind of things are much more valuable skills and I would honestly feel like a failure if all my son wanted to be was "Max Jr. MBA" who wears a suit and writes memos and uses linkedIn. Me and my wife discussed it, and unless the boys are gonna go for pre-med/nursing or something like construction mgmt..college doesn't get paid for and no loans get cosigned. Of course they can do what they want, but I don't want to pay for something that I don't really respect. I would be happier if they did like me and went for the GED and then trade school and then I would support them financially until they were able to take care of themselves, and would even probably be able to get them jobs. I want to raise men who have useful skills, not little employees for the dilbert life.
Had this discussion around my sister (who went to school for a boring pencil pusher degree and is now gonna be living in Chicago doing the 9-5 and going to just be another face in rush hour crowds instead of someone with a skill) and she said that me and my wife are messed up for feeling that way. What is your opinion?
That Is one of the DUMBEST things I have heard!
I am firmly with you sister!
It doesn't make you a "bad dad" if you encourage THEM to follow THEIR dreams and aspirations!
#1} You have to get the idea in YOUR head that your Ssons are NOT you! YOU cannot {and will NOT} live vicariously through them! They cannot be an "extension" of you! They are their OWN persons, with their own desires, just like you.
2} If Johnny Jr. WANTS an MBA, he should get it. He may even make more money you do! He may even make Millions or BILLIONS operating a large company. And He can used LinkedIN all he wants!
3} Saying "no college loans" IF they DON'T DO EXACTLY as YOU want {Doctor or Construction Manager?} is Pig headed, stubborn and wrong. You may NOT have that choice once they get to that time in their life, You may have to BY LAW co-sign or put them through college. The laws could change. And If the Obama administration gets its way, 2 Year college will be free for everyone, just like High School is today.
4}YOU would "feel like a Failure"??? YOU WILL be a failure if you don't let THEM choose their own path in life!
5}Who are you to "respect or NOT respect a College degree"? Suppose the college degree persons don't respect you or your line of work. You personally don't build something, it takes MANY HANDS to build something. Lets see you build a skyscrapper all by your lonesome. You could not complete it in a lifetime of trying. SOmeone has to design/test these things you build, and a college degree with computer experience might be required so it doesn't collapse on you.
6} MANY consider people a QUITTER if they fail to finish a FREE HIGH SCHOOL education! Since you dropped out and acquried a GED: YOU, sir, are a QUITTER!
7} You said "Me and my wife discussed it"--perhaps if you finished HS or went to college, you would know the phrase "MY WIFE AND I discussed it" to be correct, or are you one who measures out 65 15/16th of an inch, and "calls it 66 inches" when you build???
8} If you "build things'', SOMEONE has to account for the parts needed to build something....someone HAS to do SOME ACCOUNTING! Or else you WON'T have what you need to finish your 'building" {of anything}.
9} I'll BET you want to someone to have done some ACCOUNTING come your PAY DAY! Or do you work at your trade for free???
I hope they grow up to be a HUGE disappointment to you, go to college, move away leaving you to sit and wonder about them, your grandchildren, and what have you. I hope they never bother to come see you anymore while you waste away in your retirement from your "trade job". WHy? Because maybe, just maybe, they WON'T RESPECT YOU for narrowing their choices in life. Not really, but you can push them away like that.
Bottom line? To be a good dad, you encourage them to do what they want in life, and be supportive even if it "doesn't agree with your philosophy".
I make a good living in a blue collar field. Got my GED at 17 and got a trade certificate. Have worked for myself, big companies, small companies and now will be managing a construction crew.
I have twin boys in grade school, and to be honest I would be a little bummed if they went into an office job or anything academic besides maybe a physician. I know that accountants and such are needed, but for some reason I just think in the grand scheme of things, jobs where you sit at a desk and play with numbers and where a tie are less repectable than people who actually use their physical skills. When your build something you're actually creating something tangible. I would encourage my kids to not go to college and instead do a trade, go work in a factory etc. I think those kind of things are much more valuable skills and I would honestly feel like a failure if all my son wanted to be was "Max Jr. MBA" who wears a suit and writes memos and uses linkedIn. Me and my wife discussed it, and unless the boys are gonna go for pre-med/nursing or something like construction mgmt..college doesn't get paid for and no loans get cosigned. Of course they can do what they want, but I don't want to pay for something that I don't really respect. I would be happier if they did like me and went for the GED and then trade school and then I would support them financially until they were able to take care of themselves, and would even probably be able to get them jobs. I want to raise men who have useful skills, not little employees for the dilbert life.
Had this discussion around my sister (who went to school for a boring pencil pusher degree and is now gonna be living in Chicago doing the 9-5 and going to just be another face in rush hour crowds instead of someone with a skill) and she said that me and my wife are messed up for feeling that way. What is your opinion?
Why don't you wait and see what their talents and interest are before you decide whether they should go to college?
I think that you should want your children to be happy and successful. Happy and successful can mean having a desk job and wearing a tie. It can also be blue collar. There is not one singular way to happiness and success.
My husband is a successful lawyer. My father was a successful tool and die maker. They both supported their family and had careers that they enjoyed.
So I guess if I told my (nonexistant) kids I wouldn't pay for trade school because I don't respect people who do "dirty work" with their hands there'd be no reaction from you?
How about letting your kids decide what they want to do. There are many respectable professions (you know, not including pimps either street or corporate). I say you set aside a certain amount that pretty much is for whatever profession they want, within reason - not sure I'd give money for fine arts given this economy. Let THEM decide.
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