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1) People will logically pick friends who give them good references, so there's nothing objective there.
2) Most employers are not allowed to say anything about their former employers, other than verifying that they worked there. This makes references aside from friends even more pointless. Worse, idiot managers can misread this canned response "Yes, he worked here and that's all I can say" as "Oh, they had nothing good to say about the guy, so clearly I shouldn't hire him."
3) Spiteful ex-managers can slander a job hunter with no consequences.
So, they really are useless these days. Once we moved beyond the era of poor communications and heavily localized industries, references declined into irrelevance. Today, they are next to useless for most industries, and while they'll never be illegal, they really should be taken with a large grain of salt.
Exactly. Not to mention the burden of having someone be your reference. I mean, who the hell WANTS to be a reference and be bothered?! I sure wouldn't.
Noone is going to speak to HR for 1/2 an hour for a reference check. I don't even know what could possibly take that long. Heck I can barely stand to speak to an HR person at all. If I was in such a situation I'd lay down the law after about 10 minutes that Joe is a great guy and employee and I agreed to be his reference but you need to wrap this up or I am going to have to hang up on you.
This actually happened to me. I had a great reference (large company CFO) that I worked with in public accounting. I used this person as a reference for jobs, grad school admission, etc.
I interviewed at a company and they called him for a reference check. He said that about 15 minutes into it he asked the HR rep how much longer they thought it was going to take. The response was that it usually took 30-45 minutes. He ended the call, I didn't get the job. He called me later to tell me about it and apologize for losing his cool with the stupid HR person. He hooked me up with another job working for one of his friends.
HR reps are the lowest form of life on the planet.
IMO, reference checks are only done by HR people that need to check a box on a form and validate their own existence. Or by managers that don't trust their own interview/decision making skills.
1) People will logically pick friends who give them good references, so there's nothing objective there.
2) Most employers are not allowed to say anything about their former employers, other than verifying that they worked there. This makes references aside from friends even more pointless. Worse, idiot managers can misread this canned response "Yes, he worked here and that's all I can say" as "Oh, they had nothing good to say about the guy, so clearly I shouldn't hire him."
3) Spiteful ex-managers can slander a job hunter with no consequences.
So, they really are useless these days. Once we moved beyond the era of poor communications and heavily localized industries, references declined into irrelevance. Today, they are next to useless for most industries, and while they'll never be illegal, they really should be taken with a large grain of salt.
1) Using friends is illogical. Unless this is the first job you've ever had, nobody cares what your friends have to say.
2) You're confusing the request for references with the request for the name and contact information for former managers. There's a difference and companies ask for both.
3) Which is it - 2 or 3? You're contradicting yourself. If most employers are not allowed to say anything, you shouldn't worry about spiteful ex-managers.
I interviewed at a company and they called him for a reference check. He said that about 15 minutes into it he asked the HR rep how much longer they thought it was going to take. The response was that it usually took 30-45 minutes. He ended the call, I didn't get the job.
30-45 minutes for a reference check is insane. I have been to actual interviews that lasted 30-45 minutes. I can understand be thorough but it seems an intelligent person could cut to the chase & either ask for them to verify what you presented or ask them to give a quick description to see if the two sides jibe. Beyond that- asking a persons best & worst characteristic or most & least successful project can fish out so something better or worse than they offered about themselves.
I've been told the real difference maker is usually 'would you hire this person again?'
I am good with references to a degree. I do think they can often give a good perspective on someone that the person often does not see. And even help a manager know how to deal best with the employee if they use the process well. A dormer sub of ours once hired someone for what seemed a lowly position (especially in comparison to his wife who was an MD) & he proved to be his best employee ever. His former employer explained that he had an actual passion for that job and that while he was a very quiet/conscientious worker he always took on any task/training/expanded role with a great deal of care. He turned out to be a great hire & in truth the old boss sold him better than he could sell himself.
Nope, I have some good references. But I think it's pointless to have to use them in order to get a damn job. The whole thing is a façade. Whenever I quit a job, I usually get one or two people who offer to be a reference. But even so, the whole thing is completely unnecessary in this day and age and should be abolished. The whole thing is BIASED!
Tell you what. You start your own business, and you can forgo references and credit checks on your potential employees. In the meantime, let other business owners find their candidates however they want.
1) Using friends is illogical. Unless this is the first job you've ever had, nobody cares what your friends have to say.
2) You're confusing the request for references with the request for the name and contact information for former managers. There's a difference and companies ask for both.
3) Which is it - 2 or 3? You're contradicting yourself. If most employers are not allowed to say anything, you shouldn't worry about spiteful ex-managers.
Sounds like a lot of complaining about nothing.
Clarification:
1) By "Friends" I mean "coworkers in your field who you like and who like you."
2) People talked about the problem of list managers as references. I figured it was worth mentioning that many managers are not allowed by the company to say anything other than when a person worked there. This can be easily mistaken for a "bad reference" by idiot HR people, of which there are no shortage.
3) Just because a manager isn't allowed by company policy to bad-mouth a former employee doesn't mean he won't; people break the rules all the time. This gets into the typical problem: managers who are childish or nasty enough to want to sabotage a former employee are also the types who would violate company policy. Nobody is going to say anything about it because it is unlikely anyone will find out and nobody working under such a nasty boss would want to challenge him on it. Meanwhile, decent bosses who'd like to help out a former employee are also more likely to be honest and follow company policy.
Long story short, the reference system rewards bad behavior in the same fashion as internet forums: you can totally trash talk somebody without there being any consequences. And, much like the internet, anything can be made up about anyone, making it all rather meaningless.
All that really should matter is the person's definable skills, their personality (to a limited degree), and their job experience.
This actually happened to me. I had a great reference (large company CFO) that I worked with in public accounting. I used this person as a reference for jobs, grad school admission, etc.
I interviewed at a company and they called him for a reference check. He said that about 15 minutes into it he asked the HR rep how much longer they thought it was going to take. The response was that it usually took 30-45 minutes. He ended the call, I didn't get the job. He called me later to tell me about it and apologize for losing his cool with the stupid HR person. He hooked me up with another job working for one of his friends.
HR reps are the lowest form of life on the planet.
IMO, reference checks are only done by HR people that need to check a box on a form and validate their own existence. Or by managers that don't trust their own interview/decision making skills.
It just makes no sense. I mean My mother and Wife could not spend 30-45 minutes talking about me what could a boss/coworker possibly have to discuss that would take so long? I've had entire interviews as a candidate last less than 45 minutes. However, when HR people get to far off their leash sometime's the only thing you can do is walk away.
It just makes no sense. I mean My mother and Wife could not spend 30-45 minutes talking about me what could a boss/coworker possibly have to discuss that would take so long? I've had entire interviews as a candidate last less than 45 minutes. However, when HR people get to far off their leash sometime's the only thing you can do is walk away.
My current job questioned my references for about 30 minutes as well. It is a federal job though and they wanted to know how long they knew me, if I seemed like I acted like I was hiding any skeletons, etc. On the job related questions, they asked how well I worked with people/along, if they would hire me, etc.
Unusual that it takes so long but not entirely uncommon either
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