Never meant to climb the ladder

[Mimidae]

Originally Posted by Mr.Professional

But if you are looking to advance your career, working harder and goin above and beyond is the key.

Not if you're a woman. Working harder and going above and beyond - without demanding more, like a man would - just means you do more in the same position and they say "that's our gal Sally, always willing to take on more."

OP, what would happen if you asked to become an account manager? What would happen if you indicated that you're not happy with your current role, and, given all that you do, would like your job title and salary to be expanded?

[Mr.Professional]

Originally Posted by Hallouise

Not if you're a woman. Working harder and going above and beyond - without demanding more, like a man would - just means you do more in the same position and they say "that's our gal Sally, always willing to take on more."

OP, what would happen if you asked to become an account manager? What would happen if you indicated that you're not happy with your current role, and, given all that you do, would like your job title and salary to be expanded?

Being a man or woman has nothing to do with being promoted theres a lot in factor but definitely not that

[timberline742]

Originally Posted by Pitt Chick

You should not be ending up at entry level, because you should NOT even apply for entry level.
You should be switching so that you ARE moving up.

No degree, and she's in the Northeast = an exceptionally low ceiling, effectively entry level. Heck, a lot of the admin or EAs around here have masters, never mind bachelors.

[G-fused]

Originally Posted by Hallouise

Not if you're a woman. Working harder and going above and beyond - without demanding more, like a man would - just means you do more in the same position and they say "that's our gal Sally, always willing to take on more."

OP, what would happen if you asked to become an account manager? What would happen if you indicated that you're not happy with your current role, and, given all that you do, would like your job title and salary to be expanded?

I’m no feminist but that is absolutely true in general for both men and women. If you don’t speak up, you usually get nothing. And one doesn’t need to be a staunch feminist to know that it’s harder for women.

Now, I don’t think she should stomp in and ask to become an account manager. Or indicate her displeasure with her current role. Or that she would like her job title and salary expanded. Something tells me that won’t go over well.

Originally Posted by timberline742

No degree, and she's in the Northeast = an exceptionally low ceiling, effectively entry level. Heck, a lot of the admin or EAs around here have masters, never mind bachelors.

100% agree. Our former admin assistant had a masters. Our current one has a bachelors and is searching for masters programs to apply to.

[DvlsAdvc8]

Originally Posted by Hallouise

You have to let them know you have ambitions beyond your position. You have to ask for it, or they'll continue to see you as the "good ol' gal" who'll take care of everything and be satisfied with her position until she retires.

Or go to another job where you can demonstrate all of these skills, and try advancing your career there.

FYI, this has nothing to do with feminism and discrimination. If you're doing what you do for X, no one is going to just volunteer to give you X+1 to do the same thing unless they can't find anyone else to do it for X. Maybe the "guy with potential" you mentioned simply didn't wait around hoping someone would give him a promotion. You take on work above your job description, and you use that experience when applying for other positions or lobbying for promotion when a position comes open.

If you're truly underpaid you shouldn't have too much trouble finding a better paying job. If you can't, it's a solid indication you're not underpaid.

While discriminatory practices have certainly existed, some of the difference in promotion is accounted for by the fact that men tend to be more selfish or more assertive of their worth, more likely to directly ask for a raise or to seek a new job if they feel underpaid. It's not often that anyone will just volunteer to pay you more for what you're already doing, you have to go get it. That's life for men and women. Unassertive men have the same complaints.

[the_grimace]

What I never understood is how some people transition laterally so easily. I hear that it's easy to move laterally within the same company, but I've tried that for years without much luck. (My case was trying to go from design into more stable business side positions like project coordination or analysis)

There is one guy at the company I currently work for that has probably worked in almost every department, and not just out of some temporary need, but I'm talking a leave the old position and go full on into the new position. It almost sounds like these people are presented with, "hey, do you want to work in this department?" "why yes, sure". Meanwhile I'm beating down the doors and they are like, you are so good at your current job, we like you there better! It's almost like you have to be bad at your current job to move laterally.

[Blondebaerde]

Originally Posted by timberline742

No degree, and she's in the Northeast = an exceptionally low ceiling, effectively entry level. Heck, a lot of the admin or EAs around here have masters, never mind bachelors.

If that's true...and I don't live there...then your counsel is to remove that roadblock. Sounds like a great idea.

In Seattle, there are very many highly-educated people. I know of few Admins in IT that don't have Bachelor's, though it is possible I suppose. The bar is higher due to a glut of talent, with ruthless competition for the roles that pay well enough to live the American Dream in the classic sense of the phrase (home, car, money for kid's activities and college, retirement plan). Everyone else fights for scraps.

I'm sure rest of my comments have been repeated in three pages of the thread, but for starters:

- No one ever "offered" me anything other than my first professional-level positions (two of them, couple years apart) back in the days when a solid resume, education, and internships (but little work experience) could still land a professional position. It ain't so anymore.

- Yes, I've seen some female "toilers" who get things done and make themselves sick over it, but don't get promoted. I see much less of that past 15 years, women have wised-up in the professional world how to get ahead. Thank God.

- From then on in, I've talked my way into the next role, or inherited due to someone failing-quitting-dying-going nuts, or assumed responsibilities of others, or built something that adds value to an organization and become indispensable. Wait long enough by the river, the bodies of your enemies will float by. Wait too long, you're next on the river however.

- completing an MBA from a top school upped my street IQ by about one standard deviation, seems-like, and I've talked my way into an additional hundred K in salary and bonuses (annual) since then, in-toto, not that many years ago. Future looks pretty bright, too. The right CV and 10-15 years of experience were keys to open those doors. The rest is performance-based, on "value" not "knowledge".

- Next steps up are tougher, but see below for a general framework.

Best lecture I've heard on the subject is by James Whittaker, guru geek in IT (and distinguished engineer, a rare accomplishment indeed). The lessons apply to mostly any industry I'm aware of. His Kindle book is $10, it's a worthwhile read though he's a powerful speaker in-person with devastating, no-BS logic and pulling no punches about how winners win.

"Career Superpowers" by James Whittaker.