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Clueless or heartless or both? What may seem to be a bad job to you enables someone else to have a roof over their head and food on the table.
Part of the game being played is that which within which people make purchasing decisions in such a way to reward suppliers for moving their operations off-shore where labor is cheaper, thereby lowering the value of work domestically such that so much more work here is worth less than it takes to pay one's own way, followed by those same people making decisions regarding society's treatment of those unlucky enough to be no longer able to pay their own way with the devalued wages from the remaining jobs. Essentially, we Americans are causing the problem and then blaming the victims among us for the problem we ourselves caused, some folks even bold enough to congratulate themselves for what? the luck of not ended up with the short stick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer
you will find out when you are living in a tin shed with a dirt floor, that's what a third worlders cost of living consists of, they also walk to work or car pool.
Precisely. What Americans are doing with their purchasing behaviors and labor policies is effectively exporting units of Standard of Living abroad.
To be fair, this is the result of globalization. Our nation has been a net-exploiter of international trade for almost a century. Throughout most of that time, we exploited the resources and other aspects of what other nations have had to offer and inadequately compensated those nations vis a vis the true value to us of what we received. We used our superpower status to escape the effects of the free market that would have had us pay what we bought was worth to us. If the playing field was fair, we would never have been able to climb so high, and many more nations would have climbed along with us instead of being left behind, left behind such that today they serve as a source of cheap labor for more affluent Americans to exploit today.
One of the most effective ways to confront the situation now is to apply import tariffs that penalize the exploitation of this standard of living imbalance: Charge the difference between the price paid and whatever these goods or services provided would cost if Americans had done the work, thereby making the choice whether to buy American more attractive. However, that would be rightfully seen as a predatory tariff harmful to our trading partners. From their view, it is justice to now see some of that American standard of living packaged up and exported to their nation. And, of course, the ensuing lose of foreign markets would end up wrecking our own ability to keep our economic engine going. There are no easy answers.
Negitive, minerals in the ground have always had low value. Our value as a nation was our intellectual ability. Who built the machinery to get that stuff out of the ground, who mechanized food production? We used to keep all that tech close to the vest as we should have.
Now we allow intellectual property to be exported. Back in the day glass was only made on one island near Italy and if anyone was found to be selling trade secrets they were littlerally killed, now we give it away and no one is tried for treason and hung. Now other nations can leverage technology they did not invent against us.
In giving away that technology we are forcing our kids to fight these cultures to regain control. So another arms race and major war is inevitable, either that or our kids kids will be the ones living in tin huts.
At least we haven't started selling aircraft carriers to nations that hate us
Calling the playing field uneven because some tribe sitting in a teepee wearing loin cloths did not get a big shipment of free catapillar heavy equipment because they were hunting on top of a tin deposit is not a travesty. Was there outright theft, yes, but lets not kid ourselves that these people were some how entitled to first world living standards for one tin mine deal. Now if they wanted to develop the equipment, mine the tin and then refine it into pure rods or sheets, they could sell it at a premium. People are going to learn the hard way how valuable intelletucal property is when we either have a war over it or govts have completely disincentivized the smart people from doing it anymore.
There are easy answers people just don't like them. At the VERY least we should be imposing HEAVY tarrifs on companies that exploit near slave labor and steal intellectual property. We need to redefine who controls the intellectual property as well. If an American in your company developed X that then becomes American property, you as the company can profit from it but the moment you share it with another courtry the entire board should face the death penalty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU
Part of the game being played is that which within which people make purchasing decisions in such a way to reward suppliers for moving their operations off-shore where labor is cheaper, thereby lowering the value of work domestically such that so much more work here is worth less than it takes to pay one's own way, followed by those same people making decisions regarding society's treatment of those unlucky enough to be no longer able to pay their own way with the devalued wages from the remaining jobs. Essentially, we Americans are causing the problem and then blaming the victims among us for the problem we ourselves caused, some folks even bold enough to congratulate themselves for what? the luck of not ended up with the short stick.
Precisely. What Americans are doing with their purchasing behaviors and labor policies is effectively exporting units of Standard of Living abroad.
To be fair, this is the result of globalization. Our nation has been a net-exploiter of international trade for almost a century. Throughout most of that time, we exploited the resources and other aspects of what other nations have had to offer and inadequately compensated those nations vis a vis the true value to us of what we received. We used our superpower status to escape the effects of the free market that would have had us pay what we bought was worth to us. If the playing field was fair, we would never have been able to climb so high, and many more nations would have climbed along with us instead of being left behind, left behind such that today they serve as a source of cheap labor for more affluent Americans to exploit today.
One of the most effective ways to confront the situation now is to apply import tariffs that penalize the exploitation of this standard of living imbalance: Charge the difference between the price paid and whatever these goods or services provided would cost if Americans had done the work, thereby making the choice whether to buy American more attractive. However, that would be rightfully seen as a predatory tariff harmful to our trading partners. From their view, it is justice to now see some of that American standard of living packaged up and exported to their nation. And, of course, the ensuing lose of foreign markets would end up wrecking our own ability to keep our economic engine going. There are no easy answers.
Last edited by pittsflyer; 11-11-2015 at 03:48 PM..
All things being equal, why not buy USA made products? Of course, all things are not usually equal. But let's assume they are. Then why not?
Unfortunately, most of the "made in USA" stuff is more expensive. I'm somewhat of an audiophile, so I spend money on audio equipment, from time to time. Let's say I want to buy a stereo power amplifier.
I can buy a McIntosh amp, model MC452, made in Binghampton NY, for $7500. Or, I can find a similar amp, made in China, for around $1450. What do I do? Some people have big bucks and feel better about having the McIntosh brand name. It makes them feel important. Other people would rather save the $6000 for something else. I guess that kind of comparison wouldn't be too hard to make, no matter what you'e looking at. But if the prices is the same, sure, I'll buy the made in USA stuff.
I'm a connoisseur of quality tools. China is not often an acceptable option for me. They are fine for a few uses, but generally speaking, I can count on made in China tools to fail with regular long term use.
I still like to save money though, so I purchased a great deal of used made in USA tools. We used to make some awesome stuff. There is no reason we could not go back to that, except, there is not a consumer market that requires such expensive tools. Most people use a tool a couple times and forget about it. Go to Harbor Freight and save your money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer
you will find out when you are living in a tin shed with a dirt floor, that's what a third worlders cost of living consists of, they also walk to work or car pool.
Hardly. I would build myself a much nicer house than that.
And you probably mean 2nd worlders. 3rd worlders have not even stepped in line for the capitalism rollercoaster yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU
Part of the game being played is that which within which people make purchasing decisions in such a way to reward suppliers for moving their operations off-shore where labor is cheaper, thereby lowering the value of work domestically such that so much more work here is worth less than it takes to pay one's own way, followed by those same people making decisions regarding society's treatment of those unlucky enough to be no longer able to pay their own way with the devalued wages from the remaining jobs. Essentially, we Americans are causing the problem and then blaming the victims among us for the problem we ourselves caused, some folks even bold enough to congratulate themselves for what? the luck of not ended up with the short stick.
Precisely. What Americans are doing with their purchasing behaviors and labor policies is effectively exporting units of Standard of Living abroad.
To be fair, this is the result of globalization. Our nation has been a net-exploiter of international trade for almost a century. Throughout most of that time, we exploited the resources and other aspects of what other nations have had to offer and inadequately compensated those nations vis a vis the true value to us of what we received. We used our superpower status to escape the effects of the free market that would have had us pay what we bought was worth to us. If the playing field was fair, we would never have been able to climb so high, and many more nations would have climbed along with us instead of being left behind, left behind such that today they serve as a source of cheap labor for more affluent Americans to exploit today.
One of the most effective ways to confront the situation now is to apply import tariffs that penalize the exploitation of this standard of living imbalance: Charge the difference between the price paid and whatever these goods or services provided would cost if Americans had done the work, thereby making the choice whether to buy American more attractive. However, that would be rightfully seen as a predatory tariff harmful to our trading partners. From their view, it is justice to now see some of that American standard of living packaged up and exported to their nation. And, of course, the ensuing lose of foreign markets would end up wrecking our own ability to keep our economic engine going. There are no easy answers.
So you would like to start a trade war. Very few would benefit. I would likely be making 100K on straight time (probably more) as result though, so I say go for it!
That's assuming you can afford the plywood, concrete, glass, insulation, LAND, building permits, etc etc. That's assuming anyone can even make a wage high enough to buy these things because if companies can get slave labor why would they hire you. Unless you are giving them all your good ideas and intellectual property just so you have enough money to buy some building materials.
That's the rub, the more these companies are allowed to get away with this the harder and harder it will be to build that house.
No not a trade war a real war. People forget that "bullets" are the lowest common denominator when smart people are pushed into a corner. The germans were pushed into that very same corner less than 100 years ago.
If you are shipping something at my expense maybe that ship gets sunk and so on it escalates. It will cease to be a gentlemans game once one side starts loosing too much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire
I'm a connoisseur of quality tools. China is not often an acceptable option for me. They are fine for a few uses, but generally speaking, I can count on made in China tools to fail with regular long term use.
I still like to save money though, so I purchased a great deal of used made in USA tools. We used to make some awesome stuff. There is no reason we could not go back to that, except, there is not a consumer market that requires such expensive tools. Most people use a tool a couple times and forget about it. Go to Harbor Freight and save your money.
Hardly. I would build myself a much nicer house than that.
And you probably mean 2nd worlders. 3rd worlders have not even stepped in line for the capitalism rollercoaster yet.
So you would like to start a trade war. Very few would benefit. I would likely be making 100K on straight time (probably more) as result though, so I say go for it!
Calling the playing field uneven because some tribe sitting in a teepee wearing loin cloths did not get a big shipment of free catapillar heavy equipment because they were hunting on top of a tin deposit is not a travesty.
Good thing that wasn't what I said.
Putting aside how your reply wasn't actually replying to what I actually wrote... The underlying sentiment that I did get from your rant was a generalized disrespect for anyone other than yourself and those you consider part of your "tribe". Ethnocentrism is firmly grounded in the same kind of sentiment that underlies generalized racism, sexism, etc. It is a reaction to the realization that affirming the worth and dignity of every person derails the corrupt narratives that foster the rationalizations for marginalization of "others" that justifies claims of primacy of the self and one's own "tribe". Human begins are generally better than that, now.
The stink of this one sentence that you posted, and the subsequent sentences in support of it, despoils any possible value there was elsewhere in your comment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire
Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU
One of the most effective ways to confront the situation now is to apply import tariffs that penalize the exploitation of this standard of living imbalance ... However, that would be rightfully seen as a predatory tariff harmful to our trading partners.
So you would like to start a trade war.
Did you stop reading my message midway through?
Folks... when posting responses, please post responses to what folks have actually written, rather than replying to something easier to argue against. If you just want to posture, spewing your own personal perspective, without regard to what you're replying to, then don't quote the earlier message. You are under no obligation to post your messages as replies. You can just post them as standalone comments in the thread.
You are going to be seeing on the news in the next few years how wrong you are about the irrelevance to the rest of my post. When the rubber meets the road the intellectual psychobabble you presented is not going to carry people very far. You do realize that most of the USA is held together by forced diversity through our police state?
The moment that the police state can not be maintained you will see how wrong you are. The pandering and political correctness is done out of fear of the state.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU
Good thing that wasn't what I said.
Putting aside how your reply wasn't actually replying to what I actually wrote... The underlying sentiment that I did get from your rant was a generalized disrespect for anyone other than yourself and those you consider part of your "tribe". Ethnocentrism is firmly grounded in the same kind of sentiment that underlies generalized racism, sexism, etc. It is a reaction to the realization that affirming the worth and dignity of every person derails the corrupt narratives that foster the rationalizations for marginalization of "others" that justifies claims of primacy of the self and one's own "tribe". Human begins are generally better than that, now.
The stink of this one sentence that you posted, and the subsequent sentences in support of it, despoils any possible value there was elsewhere in your comment.
Did you stop reading my message midway through?
Folks... when posting responses, please post responses to what folks have actually written, rather than replying to something easier to argue against. If you just want to posture, spewing your own personal perspective, without regard to what you're replying to, then don't quote the earlier message. You are under no obligation to post your messages as replies. You can just post them as standalone comments in the thread.
You are going to be seeing on the news in the next few years how wrong you are about the irrelevance to the rest of my post.
Given how opaque it was, it is doubtful that anyone could see such relevance even if it magically occurred. By the same token, perhaps people will read whatever they want into what you wrote, and then see relevance in their own perceptions of what occurs next. So there is that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer
When the rubber meets the road the intellectual psychobabble you presented
Pot, kettle, black
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer
is not going to carry people very far. You do realize that most of the USA is held together by forced diversity through our police state?
So what I'm gathering you're saying now is that the correct path forward is the restoration of segregation, either separating ethnic groups out from minority races or perhaps just lump all ethnic groups together with minority races, followed by - what? - state-sanctioned pogroms? as a solution to the problems of America's labor marketplace. Do I have that right?
The purpose of a corporation is to maximize shareholder wealth. By doing so, the shareholder's can then do what they please with the money. That includes helping and benefiting society. Why should management decide what to do with the owner's money if they aren't acting to maximize shareholder wealth? If they give $5,000,000 to purpose X and I want my money to go to purpose Y, what gives them the right?
The purpose of a corporation is to maximize shareholder wealth. By doing so, the shareholder's can then do what they please with the money. That includes helping and benefiting society. Why should management decide what to do with the owner's money if they aren't acting to maximize shareholder wealth? If they give $5,000,000 to purpose X and I want my money to go to purpose Y, what gives them the right?
You're correct in assuming the maximization of profit is a corporations only focus---But, the shareholders and the corp all exist in our democratic framework and that means the voters and their reps should be calling the shots on everything. We, the American people, not corporations have managed to build a pretty decent society, but the need to rein in the excesses of capitalism is a reality that few can relate to in the face of corporate propaganda. The maximization of profit includes a dire hatred of any and all efforts to ameliorate that in terms of the need to have a good spread of general well being, not just the corporate well being...
That's assuming you can afford the plywood, concrete, glass, insulation, LAND, building permits, etc etc. That's assuming anyone can even make a wage high enough to buy these things because if companies can get slave labor why would they hire you. Unless you are giving them all your good ideas and intellectual property just so you have enough money to buy some building materials.
You are not guaranteed job and financial security because no one can offer you that. Politicians can offer promises, but that won't do you much good if and when SHTF.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer
That's the rub, the more these companies are allowed to get away with this the harder and harder it will be to build that house.
I can build a house now. Have you seen how cheap building material is??? And with the price of labor, I could hire helpers at pretty reasonable wages. And have you seen the ridiculous prices that retiring babyboomers expect for their century old crap shacks? There has never been a better time to build that house. So I don't get your point at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer
No not a trade war a real war. People forget that "bullets" are the lowest common denominator when smart people are pushed into a corner. The germans were pushed into that very same corner less than 100 years ago.
A real war, because Americans can buy a new microwave for $60? LOL get real.
If you are shipping something at my expense maybe that ship gets sunk and so on it escalates. It will cease to be a gentlemans game once one side starts loosing too much.
Quit buying crap that's made in China than.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU
Did you stop reading my message midway through?
Yes.
So assuming you don't want a trade war, what do you want?
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