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Oh yes, I'm confused, angry, and had a poor education experience!
What else do you got for me, boy wonder?
The topic of this discussion is economic value; not intrinsic value of job satisfaction. The objective economic fact is, teachers are not underpaid. No amount of playing the victim and throwing out feelings (instead of actual reason/logic) will change that. Clearly, any old "dope" can't understand it.
No the topic is why hourly, not contracted, teachers are not paid overtime.
Could it be that teachers don't punch time cards or have direct supervision?
All the teachers I know and have some in the family are paid based on so many hours and hourly rate.... non punch a timecard and no one checks except for the classroom hours.
Could it be that teachers don't punch time cards or have direct supervision?
All the teachers I know and have some in the family are paid based on so many hours and hourly rate.... non punch a timecard and no one checks except for the classroom hours.
Teachers do have to "punch a time card" in many school systems. It can be a time clock or a sign in sheet that's collected at the contracted report hour.
The reality is though that for the most part, teachers are typically 190 to 200-day employees while everyone else is probably going to work around 240 days per year. There's no doubt those days may be grueling and more than 40 hours per week, but there is no getting around the fact that there are typically a lot more holidays teachers have that the rest of the workforce does not have. I say this as a person with a graduate degree in education who left teaching, so I know fully what those days entail.
I think it's also a joke that public services all pay well. It depends on a state. In my state the median pay of a public servant is around $40K, so no one is raking it in. Many actually fall into the new FLSA rules because they did not qualify for overtime pay but were working well over 40 hours.
I have quite a few classmates and some friends who have become teachers, and many of them gripe about their hours, wages, and having to spend money out of their own pocket. Guess what? Most people in the private sector have to do the very same thing!
I agree with what you're seeing. Most teachers I meet always use the "more than forty hours" excuse, but few take into account that for similarly educated, professional white collar staff, they'll also be working more than forty hours per week. Most IT workers I know are working fifty hours per week, some - substantially more. Just this week we've had staff working from 3 AM to 6-7 PM, and we'll be working late tonight and both days this weekend. This isn't a normal week, but most of the staff in my department pull fifty hours a week or more, and there is no off-season.
I make more as a salaried IT worker in absolute dollars than local teachers, but per the hour, it's probably less or about the same. I also do not have anywhere near the level of benefits my teacher friends do (no pension, worse health insurance, etc.), nor do I have anywhere near the job security of a tenured teacher.
Teachers complain about having to spend their own money, but a lot of private sector workers have to as well. I don't get compensated for driving between sites in town. I am required to have corporate email on my personal phone, and am required to take work related calls and receive work related texts, and I don't get any sort of compensation or offsetting stipend for that.
I think teachers should be paid OT, but the hours they actually worked ought to be compared against a standard 2080 hour work year, not on a peer week basis due to the summer vacations and frequent holidays. I also think in general OT ought to be expanded to include far more workers, including virtually all non management staff.
I have quite a few classmates and some friends who have become teachers, and many of them gripe about their hours, wages, and having to spend money out of their own pocket. Guess what? Most people in the private sector have to do the very same thing!
I agree with what you're seeing. Most teachers I meet always use the "more than forty hours" excuse, but few take into account that for similarly educated, professional white collar staff, they'll also be working more than forty hours per week. Most IT workers I know are working fifty hours per week, some - substantially more. Just this week we've had staff working from 3 AM to 6-7 PM, and we'll be working late tonight and both days this weekend. This isn't a normal week, but most of the staff in my department pull fifty hours a week or more, and there is no off-season.
I make more as a salaried IT worker in absolute dollars than local teachers, but per the hour, it's probably less or about the same. I also do not have anywhere near the level of benefits my teacher friends do (no pension, worse health insurance, etc.), nor do I have anywhere near the job security of a tenured teacher.
Teachers complain about having to spend their own money, but a lot of private sector workers have to as well. I don't get compensated for driving between sites in town. I am required to have corporate email on my personal phone, and am required to take work related calls and receive work related texts, and I don't get any sort of compensation or offsetting stipend for that.
I think teachers should be paid OT, but the hours they actually worked ought to be compared against a standard 2080 hour work year, not on a peer week basis due to the summer vacations and frequent holidays. I also think in general OT ought to be expanded to include far more workers, including virtually all non management staff.
Do you have to buy your own paper? How about printer cartridges? Light bulbs? Toilet paper? General office supplies?
You don't likely have motivational posters but do you have to buy something analogous for your "office"?
Teachers also don't get paid for driving between work sites or to go to off site meetings.
As far as pensions and other benefits? Ok. Why is your issue a problem for teachers. As a note, many public pension plans have been changed over the last 10 or 15 years. Mine was changed 3 times over the course of my career, none of those changes were beneficial to me.
Do you have to buy your own paper? How about printer cartridges? Light bulbs? Toilet paper? General office supplies?
You don't likely have motivational posters but do you have to buy something analogous for your "office"?
Teachers also don't get paid for driving between work sites or to go to off site meetings.
As far as pensions and other benefits? Ok. Why is your issue a problem for teachers. As a note, many public pension plans have been changed over the last 10 or 15 years. Mine was changed 3 times over the course of my career, none of those changes were beneficial to me.
I've had to buy general office supplies that I personally use that aren't supplied by the company. Could I do my job without that stuff? Of course.
What do you even mean by "motivational posters?" There is decor and standard office artwork as well as stuff from local artists - to my knowledge, individual employees aren't paying for it.
The public pension problem isn't teacher specific, but some teachers, especially those in generous states like Illinois often don't appreciate the benefit that pension brings.
Additionally, in economically depressed areas, teachers often start out at salaries equal or above those in the private sector for jobs with similar education requirements that are traditionally more lucrative. The F500 in my hometown in Tennessee started new engineers at less than the a new city teacher would make, first year, no master's. Is that the teacher's problem? No, but it makes teaching relatively better paid against local conditions.
The Bay Area teachers I know enjoy a lot of parental support...
One is in the Antioch school district and the PTA gave her a checklist and classroom wishlist and the parents made it happen... simply for asking. The same goes for my friends that teach in Castro Valley
It really is amazing how much support there is.
Mileage for special events, training and work related outside the norm can often be deducted against income on taxes...
Each year I log the miles I use my personal vehicle to pick up supplies and transplant tissue... sometimes the need is critical and I volunteer to pickup keeping track of mileage.
I've had to buy general office supplies that I personally use that aren't supplied by the company. Could I do my job without that stuff? Of course.
What do you even mean by "motivational posters?" There is decor and standard office artwork as well as stuff from local artists - to my knowledge, individual employees aren't paying for it......
So you buy the stuff you "personally". How about if you have to print out hard copies for a work related presentation? Is that paper company supplied? Analogous to a test in school.
Example;
You go from Ancient Egypt to Greece and Rome. Down comes the Egypt stuff, up goes Greece/Rome. Then next week you're in Sub-Sahara Africa in the same time period. Down comes Greece/Rome, up goes Africa. A week and half later you're in Medieval China, rinse and repeat. All out of pocket.
The Bay Area teachers I know enjoy a lot of parental support...
One is in the Antioch school district and the PTA gave her a checklist and classroom wishlist and the parents made it happen... simply for asking. The same goes for my friends that teach in Castro Valley
It really is amazing how much support there is.
Mileage for special events, training and work related outside the norm can often be deducted against income on taxes...
Each year I log the miles I use my personal vehicle to pick up supplies and transplant tissue... sometimes the need is critical and I volunteer to pickup keeping track of mileage.
There is going to be huge variability with what regulations/pay/hassles teachers face between districts, and maybe even between schools in the same district.
I live in an affluent district where there is presumably more parental involvement. The schools are some of the best in the state. The teachers likely have what they need, the students come from a better home life, etc.
Go down to inner city Indianapolis, and many kids are going to be coming from broken homes, the schools aren't as nice, budgeting probably isn't sufficient, etc.
These perceptions are largely going to be colored by where one is teaching.
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