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It was customary for him to attach a photo of himself to every CV, which shocked this American. You can tell a lot about someone from their picture: age, gender, attractiveness, etc. I could hardly believe it until I saw the ads to which he was replying which clearly stated they were looking for someone between xx-xx age, among other things. There was open discrimination in employment.
Let's not fool ourselves, employers hide behind the righteousness of compliance with government regulations and not ask questions on applications that may indicate a persons age. However, as long as there is face to face interview for hiring there is still open discrimination in employment in the US. Once an interview has occurred, if candidates are not young (or old) enough, their application goes right into the reject pile with some superficial and subjective reasoning. One might say at least other countries are honest and open with what/who they want and don't waste everyone's time.
Eesh. An interview panel grilling ten candidates for an office manager position? Unless this person is going to manage the Office of the Secretary of State or something, sounds like a boondoggle to me.
You know it's illegal for them to ask you those questions, right?
It is not illegal to ask those questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eevee17
Are interviewing people straight out of college or changing careers? They sound like beginner mistakes. I thought everyone knew you don't just say things. You have to back it up and give examples. You can't just say "I have experience using keynote.". You should said "I've been using keynote since 2010. I made x,y, and z presentations using it. I also frequently use X/program/app".
Since it is an office manager, I doubt they are straight out of college.
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Originally Posted by SFBayBoomer
No, you cannot just ask any old question that might be of interest to you. Honestly, what even gives you the impression that is OK?
Decades ago an application form asked for the date of high school graduation. Well, obviously, it's very easy with that number to calculate the age of the applicant. (It's OK to request the date of university graduation, as lots of people graduate later in life, even if only by a few years.)
I left the high school graduation date field blank and during my interview I was asked why I had left that blank, and I pointed out to the two people interviewing me that it was an illegal question. They appeared to be shocked, but I'm not sure if it was because they weren't used to confident candidates that dared challenge them or that they just didn't know the question was illegal.
It was for a government position, and I came in #1.
A couple years before that, before I had become an expert in Employment Law (self-study), an older woman interviewer saw my wedding ring and asked what birth control method I was using and when I planned to have kids, as she didn't want to hire anyone who would not be there whenever she needed them.
Of course I didn't answer her question, told her what she could do with the job, and also that she ought to concentrate on interviewing women past menopause like herself, but that she should ensure they didn't plan on taking care of their sick grandchildren.
None of those links show the laws that asking those questions violate. It is not against the law to ask many questions, like age, where born, etc, it is only illegal to discriminate on the basis of those things.
So please, show the law where it states it is illegal to ask the high school graduation date, or even the age of the person.
If a form contains an illegal question or field, then that is by itself "asking an illegal question." Many candidates who are lacking in self-confidence or knowledge might answer that question on paper.
I interpret that to mean the question itself is illegal (including on the application) and is something for which a company can be sued.
Discrimination against protected classes is illegal, thus asking (on paper or in person) any question which could enable the prospective employer to ascertain the answer to such a question is also illegal.
No, not at all. Asking is not the same as discriminating against. I challenge you to show me the law that states this is illegal to ask. I just stated the links above to assist you.
AN employer can ask about anything other than disability before the job offer. However, they cannot discriminate unless they can prove it is a business necessity or bona fide job requirement.
I still find it odd there are employers out there dumb enough to ask an applicant their age. If I was a HM and really wanted to know someone's age, I would simply spend 5 seconds to find it online.
I worked for myself for years, spent my last twenty years at America's largest aviation co. In the forty three years worked, I saw plenty of people come and go who thought that all decisions made at work were, by necessity, an exercise in gut wrenching analyses. Yeah, in the big company the team hiring approach was utilized with some success, but--this was an old company, now hitting one hundred years of age and plenty of "autocratic" decisions led to it's success. Individuals, at one time were able to hire and fire with a high degree of success. Autocratic? I suppose one could look at it that way, but another view suggests that it's not about power, but brains. Today's execs love to spread the normal management level risk in order to flatten out the responsibility that goes along with poor decisions.
Companies today are infected with a kind of paralysis by analysis in so much of what they do. The hiring process today is but one example of this kind of foolish behavior, the stories are all over the web and coffee shop talk. This is not do or die stuff, and defending it as though the job and all that it entails is a kind of sacred part of our existence is just plain silly. And yes the team approach to hiring has gotten out of hand, as the OP's comments adequately demonstrate the level of incompetence of those chosen for the task of vetting new hires.
Most of the employment recruiting today is going to include a fair amount of peer review before landing a job, so, if that scenario had any real validity, why do we see the boatloads of imbeciles we are forced to deal with daily in our roles as consumers, if--so much was at stake, that the interview process needed to be drug out to the extent that is the norm today--why are we not seeing the brilliant people at their jobs as proof of the utility of panel hiring methods.
Things work--or don't-- in business, simply for the fact that at some level someone can, and most likely will, act, OR not..Upper management has, in fact shirked their duty, not only to their own obligations to a successful process, but moreover, to their customers who often are the real victims with regard to lousy hiring methods. Successful processes produce successful results, for the most part. The OP was allowing us to see a fail in motion. I'll have that coffee now
Just an FYI, but the biggest reason many use the committee is to avoid even the appearance of discrimination. In fact our committees require female and minority members.
I have been invited to be part of an interview panel looking for a new Office Manager at the company I work at. This is the first time I have got to see job applicants from a hiring perspective. In the past, my only contact with the hiring process has been me applying for jobs.
After a week of phone and in person interviews, here are my observations:
1) The average person is really sad when it comes to being interviewed for a job. They seem scared to death, are stiff and boring and don't sell themselves well at all.
2) If I hear one person tell us they are: "Hard working, well liked, good with people, well trained, etc." ---- I am going to die. Some how job applicants seem to think that if they throw out all kinds of broad statements about themselves saying how wonderful they are, they have won the game. After the applicants say all these wonderful pluffy things about themselves, our next question is: "tell us more, why is this true?" The applicant will be just stare at us, they don't know what to say.
3) So few people are really memorable and don't have anything about them that the interview panel will remember ten minutes after they leave. People are so average and unremarkable.
4) The standard interview questions of: "Tell us about yourself" and "what are your weaknesses," really trip people up.
After a week of interviewing ten people, no one has stood out and we are going to have to re-advertise and start over.
Would you still feel this way if you were hiring for lower jobs and not just a managerial position? If not some of this may not be relevant as I don't even touch the authority positions even if I was qualified but you can probly substitute/subtract some of my response to make it more relevant.
1) Scared because interviewers are looking for a reason not to hire me. There is too much competition. How can I sell myself when someone could easily be better than me? If you were hiring for more than one job that would make it a bit easier but usually it's only one position open.
2) Well I am actually the hardest worker you will ever find but the problem is interviews are on a time basis. I have tried to explain why though regardless but if I explain why you may not believe me or you might think I work too hard/are insane because I have had moments where I take so much time to earn money on the computer that I'd skip eating and even hold my bladder...all for less than 25 cents an hour. See would you want to hire me knowing that? Even though if I had a boss they would let me go to the bathroom and eat not sure how I'd look. But on the other hand if I downplay it so I don't sound so outrageous anyone could say that. For example I say I don't need many vacation days and when they ask me will I work holidays I'll say yes..well interviewers don't seem impressed with that because couldn't anyone say that?
I am also a fast learner when it comes to computers and I tell them I've worked with computers since kindergarten. But I don't know if I can explain any further than that because if I say computers are one of the few things that really make sense to me they might think "well she won't know how to do her other duties"
3) In addition to things like number 2, interviewers want someone who will fit in so that is probly why I seem unremarkable. I am not at all average but if I actually showed you who I was you still wouldn't want me in fact you'd pick the average person way before you picked me and it goes beyond things like number 2. For example I am the most honest person you will ever see but no companies don't want that. They want someone to be able to lie to sell the service/product.
4) Tell me about yourself is such a broad statement. I really don't know what answer you want. I can't really describe myself professionally unless maybe it was a job I wanted more than anything and the reality is most of the time I can't get my top choice because I don't have enough experience to even be considered.
I kinda wish someone would ask me what my weaknesses are because I feel like that would be an easier question but at the same time it is very easy to trip on that question. You can't pick one that is a kiss up answer but you also don't want to pick one that can hinder your job ability. There is a very fine line between a weakness that is more of a strength and a weakness that can affect efficiency. I always find that my true weaknesses could easily make you not want to pick me. For example people say I am more of a follower than a leader is a good answer but what if they want me to manage something? (I guess you could flip it for your type of position and someone could say they're a leader and then what if they wanted you to follow directions sometime) Speaking of which, you can say my weakness is over analyzing but that could be my strength or as you can see from this post you won't want to hire someone who thinks like I do if it's a basic jobs. My best answer would probably be that I'm too self critical but you might think wait what if she needs my help all the time to make sure she's doing the job right. They don't want to have to babysit me.
Interviews need to be better. It would make far more sense to ask me direct questions like "can I do this?" or better yet have me show you what I can do. Be straightforward and tell me exactly what you want. Ask questions directly related to the job. For example I was interviewed for a kennel and the lady asked me questions like what would I do if a dog was aggressive. She said I did really good and wouldn't have known I had a disability. Apparently she wasn't just saying that either because before I let her know I had one she mentioned about being a receptionist (that was the only reason I didn't get the job was because I was honest and said I don't like talking on the phone) Although even then I would have had a better chance if they had let me come in for the trial interview. See if more interviewers were like her maybe I'd actually have a job by now. When you ask vague questions like tell me about yourself or catch 22 questions like weaknesses of course it's going to be easy to struggle.
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Originally Posted by ocnjgirl
Think about it from any other perspective, not just jobs...if you go on a date and ask the person to tell you about themselves and they only use these broad terms ("people like me") and can't tell you anything about them unique as a person, are you really going to leave wanting more? Especially if in person, they don't seem particularly likeable but give one-word answers?
Going on a date is less pressure because your livelihood is not dependent on whether they will accept you. If it's a person you really admire it might be crushing to be rejected but you still go home being able to feed clothe shelter yourself etc. Also there is less chance you are rejected because if you really admire them there is less of a chance they are a stranger to you or even if the person is just seeing them for the first time they will also tell you about themselves while an interview is focused entirely on you. I would find a date more comfortable because you're not the center of attention. Its a two way street. Not to mention people on a date are more likely to not care about things like where you went to school whether you have charisma and fitting in in a team because it's just one person you are trying to sell yourself for not a whole company. On a date, the person is really just trying to look for if you have a similar hobbies/values and whether you are a decent person. They are not looking for a purple squirrel. They don't care as much if you are quiet or have skeletons in your closet. You are allowed to be yourself because again if they don't like you for you it is their loss but when an employer rejects me it is my loss.
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Originally Posted by ryanms3030
I was in a group interview where my boss demised the candidate after 5 minutes because the guy just had nothing interesting to say. The one thing I've learned after 20 years on the candidate side is that no matter how bad I want a job I have to go in with the attitude that I don't care too much and that something else will come up if this one doesn't work out. That always gives me a false sense of confidence without arrogance and in turn I have probably gotten offers on 75% of the jobs I've interviewed for in my life
See I could never do that because even when I don't want the job itself I want the job because I don't know how I'll ever get another chance. I am lucky to get interviews because in my life I've probly had less than 20 percent of the jobs I applied for to give me an interview as an result.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aliss2
Yep!
I hired for a health care agency that had highest wages comparable including benefits for 20 hr/week+ positions. As you can imagine, every posting was bombarded despite zero qualifications (including the postings with mandatory requiremets like nurse training).
So yeah, the majority were chucked. Obviously they are fishing, whatever, but then you see unqualified people complaining they don't get a chance and you wonder what planet they are on?
Well it depends on the job so the job you are talking about they are probably fishing but in a lot of other cases: the problem is there is no such thing as an entry level job anymore so it's only natural that people would apply for jobs above their level. Now of course I don't apply for a job that asks for a lot of qualifications that I don't have but that I know I am limiting myself because most days I don't apply to anything. Since I'm already limiting myself as it is I have applied for jobs that require you to lift things as one of the requirements not the main requirement. As a result I am honest about it and of course I still don't get the job but I don't know what they expect you to do. Why should I need to lift things over 10 pounds in a retail store? Why not focus on the other job duties?
where i work (and i work in healthcare), the applicant goes through several interviews--first the HR for initial screening, then briefly with the team leader/manager, then the rest of the department (supposedly the panel). our director sponsors free lunch for everyone, and this is when we get the applicant to try to be at ease so they can open up. despite that, we've had a few duds go through (even though a lot of us said no to those applicants) because everytime we interview one, we are desperate for any candidate to start working with us ASAP.
one i remember in particular because even though i was okay with that candidate, a lot of others apparently weren't because she was too quiet and not as engaging to talk with. but once she started working, she really turned around and became one of the fastest learners on the job (despite the lack of experience), and one of the most efficient.
when i was working in another facility, there was this famous story of how one candidate impressed everyone in the panel by bringing home made cake to the interview and served everyone herself. she was one of the best that i briefly got to work with (she had been there for several years before i worked) before she left.
Jertheber, I don't doubt you have seen a lot. I don't have 43 years of experience, but I do have 26.
I want to point out a couple of flaws in your post.
1. You present the success of your previous employer (Boeing?) as if it grew because of the practice of single handed decisionmaking. Maybe that is even true. But other companies have grown as a result of collaborative decisionmaking. As they say, correlation is not causation.
2. The practice of using hiring committees is not necessarily indicative of paralysis analysis. Might be, might not be.
3. It takes practice to become a good hiring manager. Lots of people screw it up. I certainly did many years ago. The OP seems new at this, and may not be particularly sophisticated. For all I know, his company is hopelessly screwed up. But they might be brilliant. The important thing is that a junior manager us being exposed to the hiring process, can see how decisions are made, can participate in making mistakes, and can learn from the process. This is on the job training, and it's how companies develop talent.
4. You are falling victim to confirmation bias. You remember the imbeciles, you don't remember, or even notice, all the times things go right. My job is one of those positions that goes completely unnoticed until something goes wrong. That thing might be my fault, or it might be sheer random chance. I can go weeks catching and solving issues, and everything is great. Then on one day, something goes wrong and I am one of those imbeciles you refer to. There are people at my company who I am sure think that I am an idiot, simply because something happened that affected them. They don't realize the 100 previous times I did something to prevent them from failing.
People make mistakes, and as previously noted most people are average. Most companies aren't going to be able to attract nothing but above average workers. Simply because the talent doesn't exist. Hiring is meant to minimize risk.
With all that being said I would love to buy you coffee. I think you would be an entertaining person to argue with.
I do agree, in general, with your views on collaboration, I think it has it's place in the pursuit of excellence and efficiency, and, I'll readily concede the fact that all things are never all good--nor bad, thanks for allowing us a view from your perspective.
I am a minor player in the interview panel but are learning a lot by my participation.
From what I can gather the team is using all kinds of traditional and behavioral questions, not just questions like "tell me about yourself and questions about the employers weaknesses.
People who have not been in management seem to think that you can hire just anyone to be Office Manager and a careful review of the applicants is a waste of time. If you are running a business, perhaps the most important role you have is finding the right people and a great Office Manager is key.
Still interviewing even though you are Retired Now?
Anyways, it's clear most CD posters haven't been on the hiring side. 75/100 resumes will be completely off topic, the other 20 don't convey skills well, 5 will be decent, time for 3-5 max to interview since obviously the business is doing well and probably short-staffed. But hey, according to CD, hiring managers should just throw a dart at those 25 (or all 100) since everyone would be a great employee if given a chance. Everyone should try hiring once in their life and see how easy it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aliss2
Yep!
I hired for a health care agency that had highest wages comparable including benefits for 20 hr/week+ positions. As you can imagine, every posting was bombarded despite zero qualifications (including the postings with mandatory requiremets like nurse training).
So yeah, the majority were chucked. Obviously they are fishing, whatever, but then you see unqualified people complaining they don't get a chance and you wonder what planet they are on?
I was going to ask the same thing---I didn't realize the poster came out of retirement to be on interview panels!
As for the second situation, why doesn't the software have filtering? When I apply for jobs in health care, I am specifically asked whether or not I have a license in my field, which is required. If you check "No" you'll be tossed in the discard pile and/or automatically rejected.
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and when I planned to have kids, as she didn't want to hire anyone who would not be there whenever she needed them.
