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Was your "flirting" directed toward the women in their 20's? At that age I can remember men your age occasionally being like that and it was NOT WELCOME. It was obnoxious and pathetic.
Being friendly and having good work relationships with others is one thing, being FLIRTY is another.
Being flirty will always lead to trouble, be it a sexual harassment case like yours, or mistakenly (or not mistakenly) encouraging someone to have an office affair with you.
Just DON'T flirt unless you are prepared to suffer some consequences sooner or later. Plain and simple.
The OP said he was friendly bordering on flirty, and has subsequently said he regretted saying the word flirty because numerous people here have jumped on that and taken it to the extreme, and associated him with some sleazy guy that they once worked with. In my book not all flirting has to be sexual. You can flirt with no objective in mind other than to make the other person feel good about themselves. You can friendly flirt with the cashier at a store and smile at her and say how she has a great hairstyle or some jewellery she has on, and thats it be on your way, with zero intention, just simply because you were in a good mood.
To me a compliment can be considered - friendly bordering on flirty, as could asking the person what they got up to on the weekend, asking them about their hobbies or about the book they are reading, or about some show on tv last nite, etc. It also doesn't mean the guy is hanging around doing this while the other person is busing working. It could be at morning tea, lunchtime, while they are getting a coffee, while they are waiting for the photocopier, or at drinks after work. Being charming is also considered being friendly flirty. You have to calibrate it though. If the person doesn't smile back, or has a 'whateva' attitude, you pick up on the vibe and leave it strictly business.
Not all work environments are emotionless free with 99.9% of the interaction being business related only. Sure if you act like that, you will be very safe from sexual harassment, though if the company has a policy of never naming your accuser or giving you incident details, well then its open to exploitation by someone who doesn't like you. With some companies being social helps you fit in, be more popular and it helps you get on in the company (as you said above). The particular work environment/culture you work in will play a part in expected behavior. I'm sure you will notice a difference if you worked in say an office full of auditors or engineers vs an office in a advertising agency or at a call center. You will also notice the difference if you are working in an office full of co-workers in their 40s up vs working with a bunch of young men & women in their 20s. There are a lot of people who have had romance through work, though less these days than with past generations I'd say.
Last edited by clevercuts; 12-08-2016 at 06:23 PM..
Someone would have to totally misunderstand what professional behavior is in the workplace that the only conclusion is to avoid female coworkers as a solution to being accused of sexual harassment.
Many people define 'flirty' as sexual innuendo, and being suggestive...
I define 'flirty' as just being friendly with no suggestiveness at all. Some people think 'flirty' means sexual suggestiveness.
You just have to make someone uncomfortable, and you probably did say something that you meant as a joke of something, but somehow you made someone uncomfortable.
We had a lady complain because of overheard conversations that did not involve her, but it made her uncomfortable. Whatever it was, wasn't offensive at all in my opinion.
One guy got in trouble for making a comment. I was there. The lady was a horrible person and I hated her, and most people did. This one guy was bantering with her, and I don't remember the conversation but it was hostile banter on both sides. He asked her if she was a virgin, meaning 'why are you such a stuck up nasty person?'....
They were both participating in the conversation and provoking each other. She was not Little Miss Innocent by a long shot but she made a big deal about and almost got him fired. She did not care that he said that, her little feelings weren't hurt but she did that out of revenge. When she talked about it she would dramatize her trauma and then she would walk away from her audience and laugh about it. Her agenda was to mess with him. She could, because of the laws. He shouldn't have said that, but it wasn't at all a proposition. It was a rude comment that was meant to be rude in response to her rudeness.
He had many meetings and I guess he got in trouble. He was a professional, and there was shortage in his field so he simply quit and got another job.
I liked him a lot and I hated her. I would never even talk to her unless it was absolutely necessary. I never disliked anybody as intensely as I disliked her. I think she was a psychopath.
You never know when a psychopath is on the warpath. All it takes is simply being aware of what constitutes sexual harrassment. You can talk to women, but keep it platonic. That means no flirting, or extra attention or patting them on the butt.
I have seen much worse in ways that offend me by people who are supposed to be supervising others. If I get offended, then it is pretty bad. Someone has to report it, and most people don't.
Whatever happened, you should be told, so you don't make that mistake again. Times have changed and what was tolerated 20 years ago, is not tolerated today, unless nobody files a report. Most people don't, unless they are psychopaths or very sensitive or truly uncomfortable.
Whatever happened was documented and investigated. Your perception, or intention could differ from what was perceived.
When you are in your probationary period, they don't need to defend themselves at all. You simply didn't work out.
As for being a married man, so what? Whatever you did, was not a terrible thing for a married man to do. We aren't talking about cheating or carrying on steamy office affairs. It was nothing big, but someone made a big deal about it.
this manager going to strip club with male co-workers...I don't get this. It seems it was because the female co-workers felt excluded. If he mentioned to the female staff how some of the men are going to a strip club then he runs the risk of some/one woman getting offended over 'seeing women as sex objects' and reporting him to HR. In that situation you are damned if you do damned if you don't. I'm also assuming this is after hours, and they are not going to strip clubs at lunchtime (I could not find the original thread). If he is using the company money to shout all the men drinks & stripper sessions then I guess it changes things in terms of exclusion, but if that's not the case, then being excluded from private social gatherings after hours is not HR's business. Also what male staff get up to after hours is their business, and I assume they are not talking loudly in the office about the strippers from the night before. If they are then that also changes things.
In my last job I can think of 5-6 women I could have reported to HR if I wanted to go to the extreme on being offended or being touched on the shoulder for instance. I much prefer to work in an environment where it is easy going and people can be themselves and have a bit of fun and banter. In a stressful work environment it helps to make the job more enjoyable than being on guard and always strictly formal and only discuss business.
What if the holiday party was to take place in a strip club? What if all your line of management were women and they had get-together that included male strippers...or had Tupperware/candle/basket/sex toy(!) parties that men COULD attend if they wanted to but you didn't want to? All of these are occasions where if you attended you could perhaps have access (the boss' ears) and get to rub shoulders with the bigwigs and perhaps make connections you otherwise would not be able to?
There are many venues to have gatherings at - to pick something like a strip club (or tupperware party!) with such limited or one-sided appeal screams loud and clear that you really don't want to include EVERYONE and you're actually making a pretty good effort to EXCLUDE some. If people are too obtuse to figure it out then they really aren't good management material and probably pretty poor employees too.
Location: In a city within a state where politicians come to get their PHDs in Corruption
2,907 posts, read 2,068,788 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ihpsdm
I haven't seen too many people (if any) in this thread suggest that you should avoid all interaction with female coworkers. You just need to use common sense, act professionally and learn how to read people.
Do you avoid male coworkers as well? If not, why? Have you had a history of issues when interacting with female coworkers?
Countless men are able to interact with female coworkers and bosses on a daily basis without ever being accused of sexual harassment. The indication that you avoid ALL female coworkers reflects poorly on you, not your female coworkers.
Reading people is a talent that like any other, some people have, most don't.
95% of all EEOC claims are dismissed without cause. 95%, by the very same people who are predisposed to fight for a person that filed a complaint. Plurality of workers at EEOC are black, vast majority are female. Two out of three biggest complaints are: sexual harassment, and racial discrimination.
Vast majority of complaints to EEOC are made as retaliation. Vast majority of complaints to the Corporate HR are made due to personal animosity between two parties.
Reading people is a talent that like any other, some people have, most don't.
95% of all EEOC claims are dismissed without cause. 95%, by the very same people who are predisposed to fight for a person that filed a complaint. Plurality of workers at EEOC are black, vast majority are female. Two out of three biggest complaints are: sexual harassment, and racial discrimination.
Vast majority of complaints to EEOC are made as retaliation. Vast majority of complaints to the Corporate HR are made due to personal animosity between two parties.
While your stats may be true (about the number of EEO claims that result in "no finding" of discrimination - dismissed means something totally different - it is a bit misleading. It doesn't take into account the fact that most legitimate claims iof discrimination get resolved long before a decision by the EEOC. Therefore a higher proportion of the claims that reach the EEOC never had merit to begin with.
Location: In a city within a state where politicians come to get their PHDs in Corruption
2,907 posts, read 2,068,788 times
Reputation: 4478
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmills
While your stats may be true (about the number of EEO claims that result in "no finding" of discrimination - dismissed means something totally different - it is a bit misleading. It doesn't take into account the fact that most legitimate claims iof discrimination get resolved long before a decision by the EEOC. Therefore a higher proportion of the claims that reach the EEOC never had merit to begin with.
Who is to say that they are legitimate? I'd venture to guess most settlements made between the employee and employer are in the low five figures, ~$10,000. That doesn't mean they are legitimate, but that the employer paid very little money for a person to go away.
Let me put it another way, actual employment lawsuits filed in court, based on protected classes, have a highest summary judgment dismissal, and lowest overall win percentage of ANY civil suits.
Someone would have to totally misunderstand what professional behavior is in the workplace that the only conclusion is to avoid female coworkers as a solution to being accused of sexual harassment.
How do you avoid false accusations? How do you avoid innocent comments that are wrongly interested as sexual? How do be absolutely certain that you don't accidently brush up against a woman?
How do you avoid false accusations? How do you avoid innocent comments that are wrongly interested as sexual? How do be absolutely certain that you don't accidently brush up against a woman?
You start by not flirting at work.
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