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Old 12-05-2016, 08:28 PM
 
10,341 posts, read 5,843,183 times
Reputation: 17884

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
Of all the actions that I responded to, the only one that really is wrong was the man who was telling dirty jokes. The rest are just normal behaviors that some people, but not everybody, may not like. How is somebody supposed to know, if they are not told, what behaviors each individual person does not like?
Unwelcome.
No it's not just dirty jokes, but yes, I actually do agree, one who feels offended should first say so. I don't see this as working into a situation where the other stops or apologizes, I see it more turning into the situation that we have in this thread, where people defend their behavior and and argue that it is not harassment or not sexual, or they believe there is nothing wrong with it--so what good does it do to ask them to stop?... they are not likely to stop it on their own, and who wants to argue?
Just document and let HR deal with it. Why would one expect to get a different result while they are objecting at work, then the argument "well I don't think its bad" that we are getting here?
Some things are just basic to most of us, and we don't realize we need to discuss or convince anyone not to:
Make frequent sexual remarks towards another
Repeatedly touch in an unwelcome manner
Send sexually explicit e-mails
Make catcalls every time an employee walks by
Constantly inquire about another's sex life or sexual history
Pester another for a date or sexual encounter

And what about the uncomfortable people around who have to witness it...

If you've been through this for years, then you see it coming as soon as it starts, and yes it may look hypersensitive to some, but it's almost like PTSD after years of having no recourse to things like: a supervisor coming up behind you, snipping off a piece of your hair and taping it between the legs of the centerfold above his desk...things like sexual nicknames, innuendo, comments, rubbing up behind you when your with a client and can't get away....or worse, the kind of crap that went on for years, there just isn't any patience left for it.
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Old 12-05-2016, 08:35 PM
 
2,813 posts, read 2,106,587 times
Reputation: 6129
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
In any case, the point that you and others are missing is that even if he was 100% wrong, he deserves to know what he was accused of, even if for no other reason than to correct his behavior in the future.
In most cases I would agree with this, but in this case, being well within the 90 day probationary period, I think the company was fully within their rights (legally and morally) to just cut him loose. There was no need for them spend more time/money/effort explaining this to someone who was already bringing drama 2 months in to the job.
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Old 12-05-2016, 09:42 PM
 
1,858 posts, read 3,097,273 times
Reputation: 4238
How many of us speed? Probably most of us. How much do we speed by? Typically 5-10 miles an hour (some of us more). Why? Because that is what you think you can get away with. When a cop pulls you over, do you have a legitimate? Of course not. You just take your ticket, and be extra careful for the next few days. The reality is that most of us know exactly where the line is between appropriate and inappropriate behavior. We simply choose to play in the "gray area" because we figure we can get away with it. When we don't (get away with it," we have no excuse. Don't play the victim, or expect others to help us police our own behavior.

I am pretty sure that OP knows exactly what he did. He as much says so, when he says that he is changing his behavior. If his behavior was serious enough to get him terminated, it was probably pretty overt - it wasn't something subtle. His employer felt like he should have known better, and the fact that he claims he doesn't is probably an indication that he just doesn't get it. Hopefully you learn something more from your experience than how much of a victim you have been.

I thought we had come a long way in terms of respecting women in the workplace, but based on the comments I am seeing in this thread, obviously I'm wrong.
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Old 12-05-2016, 09:57 PM
 
59 posts, read 44,685 times
Reputation: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by RamenAddict View Post
Y We just had another thread on here where a manager apparently thought strip club outings with his male coworkers were a-ok and plenty on this board agreed it was no problem even though the females subordinates felt uncomfortable and excluded. Clearly a lot of people are still in workplaces where this training is not given and "men should be men" even if it makes women feel uncomfortable in the workplace.
this manager going to strip club with male co-workers...I don't get this. It seems it was because the female co-workers felt excluded. If he mentioned to the female staff how some of the men are going to a strip club then he runs the risk of some/one woman getting offended over 'seeing women as sex objects' and reporting him to HR. In that situation you are damned if you do damned if you don't. I'm also assuming this is after hours, and they are not going to strip clubs at lunchtime (I could not find the original thread). If he is using the company money to shout all the men drinks & stripper sessions then I guess it changes things in terms of exclusion, but if that's not the case, then being excluded from private social gatherings after hours is not HR's business. Also what male staff get up to after hours is their business, and I assume they are not talking loudly in the office about the strippers from the night before. If they are then that also changes things.

In my last job I can think of 5-6 women I could have reported to HR if I wanted to go to the extreme on being offended or being touched on the shoulder for instance. I much prefer to work in an environment where it is easy going and people can be themselves and have a bit of fun and banter. In a stressful work environment it helps to make the job more enjoyable than being on guard and always strictly formal and only discuss business.

Last edited by clevercuts; 12-05-2016 at 10:06 PM..
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Old 12-06-2016, 04:14 AM
 
29,476 posts, read 22,494,633 times
Reputation: 48169
How did I, just joe average, make it through over 30 years of employment at various corporations and military without a single incident of sexual harassment?

Maybe it had something to do with being reserved and professional and letting my work do the talking, and not my mouth? Maybe it also had something to do with me not assuming what others would think offensive or not, just keeping my mouth shut about what could be construed as offensive jokes/stories, and being courteous at all times?Why is that such a hard concept to grasp? There's a difference between being easy going and good natured, and trying to be something you are not.

This is not rocket science folks. You don't need a training manual or sexual harassment training to survive the work force. I never ogled women at work or made crude sexist or racist jokes or did any of that. Now, why is that so hard for some people to do? Contrary to what some people think, there's no 'feminazi cabal' that goes around trying to deliberately get guys in trouble over perceived sexist jokes or statements.

Like another posted alluded to, just because some high profile people can get away with making crude and offensive and sexist remarks and actions, don't mean you can in the workplace. You may think what you do or say is harmless, but that's not the way the real world works.

Come on now.
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Old 12-06-2016, 04:27 AM
 
9,952 posts, read 6,626,881 times
Reputation: 19656
Quote:
Originally Posted by clevercuts View Post
this manager going to strip club with male co-workers...I don't get this. It seems it was because the female co-workers felt excluded. If he mentioned to the female staff how some of the men are going to a strip club then he runs the risk of some/one woman getting offended over 'seeing women as sex objects' and reporting him to HR. In that situation you are damned if you do damned if you don't. I'm also assuming this is after hours, and they are not going to strip clubs at lunchtime (I could not find the original thread). If he is using the company money to shout all the men drinks & stripper sessions then I guess it changes things in terms of exclusion, but if that's not the case, then being excluded from private social gatherings after hours is not HR's business. Also what male staff get up to after hours is their business, and I assume they are not talking loudly in the office about the strippers from the night before. If they are then that also changes things.

In my last job I can think of 5-6 women I could have reported to HR if I wanted to go to the extreme on being offended or being touched on the shoulder for instance. I much prefer to work in an environment where it is easy going and people can be themselves and have a bit of fun and banter. In a stressful work environment it helps to make the job more enjoyable than being on guard and always strictly formal and only discuss business.
This folks, is why women, minorites, etc., go straight to HR. Some people don't "get" it. The person in question is a manager. He is mentioning some men are going to a strip club after work. That is in no way, shape, or form acceptable at work. I have worked in a workplace where this very behavior took place and I can tell you it made every single woman feel very uncomfortable. It created a hostile work environment. We knew all the men were going out after work to strip clubs and one of the male managers was essentially hosting the event.

Other quality things that went on there were that if a woman did happen to get a promotion, it was never because of her merits, it was because she slept with X male manager or Y male manager (supposedly). Women could never excel there based on their intelligence or skills. Men could "be themselves" but women could not. So while you, a male, might prefer to work in an environment where you can "be yourself"- guess what? It's too bad. You're not going to get to be yourself if it creates a hostile work environment.
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Old 12-06-2016, 06:00 AM
 
Location: Concord, CA
7,155 posts, read 9,258,516 times
Reputation: 25444
One more point about sexual harassment is that quite a few young women were inappropriately touched by men early in life. That experience sensitizes them to be extremely careful and critical of unwanted close physical contact.

Therefore, what you might think is innocuous, e.g. a sudden hug or a touch on her arm, can cause her to be alarmed. In your culture, e.g. Italian, such behavior might be normal and expected. But you should never think she would be OK with that.

I think corporations should do training in this area because many people are ignorant about the problem.
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Old 12-06-2016, 06:14 AM
 
2,813 posts, read 2,106,587 times
Reputation: 6129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburban_Guy View Post
How did I, just joe average, make it through over 30 years of employment at various corporations and military without a single incident of sexual harassment?

Maybe it had something to do with being reserved and professional and letting my work do the talking, and not my mouth? Maybe it also had something to do with me not assuming what others would think offensive or not, just keeping my mouth shut about what could be construed as offensive jokes/stories, and being courteous at all times?Why is that such a hard concept to grasp? There's a difference between being easy going and good natured, and trying to be something you are not.

This is not rocket science folks. You don't need a training manual or sexual harassment training to survive the work force. I never ogled women at work or made crude sexist or racist jokes or did any of that. Now, why is that so hard for some people to do? Contrary to what some people think, there's no 'feminazi cabal' that goes around trying to deliberately get guys in trouble over perceived sexist jokes or statements.

Like another posted alluded to, just because some high profile people can get away with making crude and offensive and sexist remarks and actions, don't mean you can in the workplace. You may think what you do or say is harmless, but that's not the way the real world works.

Come on now.
This.

As I read all these whiners complain about what they can and can't do in the workplace, I am amused, baffled and sickened. I cannot fathom my intelligent, respectful, hard-working husband being anything other than completely appropriate at work. I'd be surprised if "appropriateness" is even something he has had to be consciously aware of.

Come on, people, it shouldn't be THAT hard to be appropriate. If it is, you need some self-reflection. Are your words and actions the same as if your spouse was standing next to you? Are your words and actions indicative of how you would want others people to treat your family members in the workplace?
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Old 12-06-2016, 06:31 AM
 
9,349 posts, read 8,271,655 times
Reputation: 19085
I only read through the first page of comments here and I don't want to come off as holier than thou because I know certain posters here just get their jollies on pretending to be perfect...............BUT......................... .I don't think most folks with an ounce of common sense would need such a "cautionary tale" to not be flirty in the first 30 days of employment with their new company. Most people I know who value their job will be very unassuming, quiet and keep their head down and work to try and impress management. Hell, I don't even socialize at all with anyone beyond superficial chit chat at first. My true personality is hidden in some respects forever to people I work with.

Your mistake wasn't so much being flirty as I think that can be fairly pervasive in Corporate America, your mistake was doing it as a new employee. Whatever you did.....likely a forward/direct comment to a female........was so bad that she felt the need to go to HR. Maybe if you hadn't been so aggressive and forward right away like that she'd have let it go. The fact that you don't have the slightest clue what you said or did tells me that it's part of your vernacular and a regular thing for you, so much so that you don't know when you do it.

Just curious as to how your wife took the news?
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Old 12-06-2016, 06:32 AM
 
1,160 posts, read 710,817 times
Reputation: 1346
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodie2shoes View Post
Let me guess, you also voted for Trump?

Look,, just because Trump gets away with being a bigot doesn't mean YOU will.

You seem to be out of touch with reality. Like most Trump supporters.
seriously?

cry more.
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