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It might be a little late to bring facts and reason into the conversation. This thread seems to have succumbed to the irrational anger that fuels some on this board.
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Originally Posted by pittsflyer
The facts are profit is king, above all else, human life, morality, community, national security.
My post was in response to a knowledgeable poster who was able to speak with some authority about HR application systems. Those were facts. You are expanding that very focused discussion into a rant.
But I will take a moment to respond to some of your idiocy.
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Nothing else matters only profits to these companies. It is a sad state of affairs and we as a communities and as a nation are allowing it. If we stood together as a nation employers would come into line, they are not all moving to China as soon as those 50-60% tarrifs hit they will all come crawling back. No employer wants to set up shop and only do buisness outside of the USA/Europe (europe has massive VAT tax).
First, keep in mind that VAT is basically a sales tax. Yes, it is high in Europe, but it is not in addition to sales tax, it IS the sales tax.
Nobody is going to start a trade war by implementing a 50% tariff. Even if one was implemented, you realize that would simply increase the cost of goods, right? It would not necessarily move manufacturing back into the country, as there are other benefits to producing overseas. It is better for companies to produce in China so that they can sell to Japan, Korea, Australia, Iran, Indonesia, domestically in China, etc. We have a global economy, and while the USA is a huge market, it is not the only market. It is better for companies to produce in low cost areas like China, sell a lot of stuff to the other low cost areas, and pay the tariffs to export to the US, knowing that they are simply passing costs onto American consumers.
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They need our markets more than we need them, as the USA/Europe we could impose what ever taxes and tarrifs we wanted and business would flourish
Yes, thy do need American markets. European ones too. But a tariff won't change the production sites. You have not provided any reason for domestic production to flourish.
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(so long as we give special favor to small buisness).
What special favor do you propose? All that you have done so far is to increase cost of doing business to the small guy, as they need to purchase products produced overseas, and you just slapped a 50% tariff on it.
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Dont let them fool you, companies want access to US and european markets while being able to simultaniously exploit what the great generations before us built here, they think becuase they threw together a buisness plan and "worked hard" that they are some how entitled to usurp everything the greatest generations fought for.
Of course they do. Who wouldn't. What mechanism do you propose to alter things other than tariffs, and how do you think tariffs will help?
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Let them go to 3rd world countries and they can see how good they have it when their buildings are taken at gun point by a war lord, the cushyness of the US markets makes these little twerps emboldened in their smuggness because they dont have to worry about being nationalized or straight up shot.
Have you ever been out of the USA? The rest of the world isn't the war torn hellhole you imagine. Most of the planet is pretty stable. In any case, even if a company does invest in something that gets destroyed, that isn't too big a problem. Oil/mineral companies do this all the time. They do business in areas that are problematic, and they simply price uncertainty into their product. It's a bit like insurance. Some factories/mines/wells will fail, but as long as most make it, the company still makes money.
I understand your anger, but it is making you irrational. You haven't come up with one workable idea yet.
oh so please tell me what this utopian environment will look like in say 40 years when the millenials are 'in charge'.. I know that the thought of 'single payer' health care and a universal basic income gives you and many millenials a wet dream as well as preferential treatment for minorities to correct 'past injustices'.. You do realize that the period from end of WWII - the 1970s culminated in soaring interest rates, double digit inflation rates and out of control crime or you probably weren't alive back then (late 1970s- 1982)
Millennials who aren't getting a large inheritence are in for a rude awakening when they realize that they have nearly nothing saved for retirement because they spent whatever they made on rent, the latest iphone and flat screen TV's and rolling over car loans or leases every 2 or 3 years to so they drive the newest $50,000 SUV
Sorry to break it to you but your stereotype of millennials is quite jaded and inaccurate. The reality is that millennials are in the job market, they are busting their butts and rising up the corporate ladder faster than people ever had before. They are achieving extremely high salaries that used to take a very long time to reach because of their drive and their skills in the new economy. I see them all around- they are millionaires, money they earned themselves building their own empires starting companies, inventing new technologies, etc.
Wake up and look around!! They have the newest $50,000 SUV or $200,000 sports cars because they earned the money needed to pay for those things. I know because I see them EVERYWHERE here in my city and elsewhere on the west coast.
The job market may indeed be poor in some localized areas, but for many parts of the country it is red hot, and has been for several years. Here on the west coast- especially here in Seattle- there are so many jobs (good, high paying jobs) that companies cannot even find enough people locally to fill those jobs. They have to advertise regionally or even out of state.
Where I work, I had a couple of openings on my team and ended up having to hire guys who lived down in California because there were just no others out there who were qualified. People who have job skills are getting multiple offers, able to take their pick of jobs and even make counter-offers.
This is across many sectors. Construction workers for example can almost name their price. There is a shortage. Same with medical professionals. And IT, the market I'm in? Unemployment is actually less than 0, it is negative.
These jobs pay well- houses are selling like never before as young families flush with money are buying homes. And you see brand new cars with dealer tags still on them ALL OVER THE PLACE.
This is not just the case in Seattle- I know it is similar all over the cities of the west coast. I have family back in the Midwest (Nebraska) who say the situation is similar there with countless jobs available.
Sorry to break it to you but your stereotype of millennials is quite jaded and inaccurate. The reality is that millennials are in the job market, they are busting their butts and rising up the corporate ladder faster than people ever had before. They are achieving extremely high salaries that used to take a very long time to reach because of their drive and their skills in the new economy. I see them all around- they are millionaires, money they earned themselves building their own empires starting companies, inventing new technologies, etc.
Wake up and look around!! They have the newest $50,000 SUV or $200,000 sports cars because they earned the money needed to pay for those things. I know because I see them EVERYWHERE here in my city and elsewhere on the west coast.
lol
That's great but the most recent U.S. median income data I could find for Millennials is about $36k a year. (And I'm guessing it's even that high because northwest, west coast, and east coast have propped up the numbers.)
I am awake and looking around; what I see is that many young people are clueless when it comes to competence, excellence, and great customer service.
My post was in response to a knowledgeable poster who was able to speak with some authority about HR application systems. Those were facts. You are expanding that very focused discussion into a rant.
But I will take a moment to respond to some of your idiocy.
First, keep in mind that VAT is basically a sales tax. Yes, it is high in Europe, but it is not in addition to sales tax, it IS the sales tax.
Nobody is going to start a trade war by implementing a 50% tariff. Even if one was implemented, you realize that would simply increase the cost of goods, right? It would not necessarily move manufacturing back into the country, as there are other benefits to producing overseas. It is better for companies to produce in China so that they can sell to Japan, Korea, Australia, Iran, Indonesia, domestically in China, etc. We have a global economy, and while the USA is a huge market, it is not the only market. It is better for companies to produce in low cost areas like China, sell a lot of stuff to the other low cost areas, and pay the tariffs to export to the US, knowing that they are simply passing costs onto American consumers.
Yes, thy do need American markets. European ones too. But a tariff won't change the production sites. You have not provided any reason for domestic production to flourish.
What special favor do you propose? All that you have done so far is to increase cost of doing business to the small guy, as they need to purchase products produced overseas, and you just slapped a 50% tariff on it.
Of course they do. Who wouldn't. What mechanism do you propose to alter things other than tariffs, and how do you think tariffs will help?
Have you ever been out of the USA? The rest of the world isn't the war torn hellhole you imagine. Most of the planet is pretty stable. In any case, even if a company does invest in something that gets destroyed, that isn't too big a problem. Oil/mineral companies do this all the time. They do business in areas that are problematic, and they simply price uncertainty into their product. It's a bit like insurance. Some factories/mines/wells will fail, but as long as most make it, the company still makes money.
I understand your anger, but it is making you irrational. You haven't come up with one workable idea yet.
A trade war would cause the prices of imported goods to soar so high that local buisness would start producing stuff in the USA because it would be cheaper, initially the american consumer would eat the cost but thats the cost of getting jobs back to the USA. The tarrifs would cause demand to go WAY down, people would buy less but eventually there would be enough american companies to fill the void it would not be an issue anymore. This of course is not going to happen over night.
If a company wants to stay in China thats fine, while I dont have a study that states what exact percentage the US markets contribute to these factories, I would be willing to bet that these other nations you listed are statisticly insignificant (Japan produces alot of stuff, they may import alot too but mostly raw material and they would be the one excepton on your list). I believe that that a 50% tarrif in the USA (and especailly if Europe followed suit) would cripple these companies and drive them to bankruptcy (thats the intention of a trade war to bankrupt your enemy and make no mistake these companies are the equivalent of modern day communism).
In addition to the tarrifs you simultaniously tax all corporate profits at 90% beyond a certian point (more than XX dollars in profits and anything after that is taxed at 90%). We used to do this and it compelled reinvestment in the company and job creation.
These two things ALONE would caues the USA to prosper.
Are we so incompetent we can make our own top secret weapons systems anymore, I can assure you Russia is not outsourcing their weapons capabilities.
What I think you fail to understand is that these economic factors is effectivly economic warfare, it is a dileberate attack on the american middle classes way of life and prosperity, in the same way an invading army burns things to the ground. The only reason people are getting away with it is because the american people are all asleep, once people wake up it could very well become a shooting war with global companies, much in the same way germany basicly just went in at the point of a gun and told banks and owners, sorry you guys are done, time to go to a camp.
If the USA never wakes up we will be second world along with a second world quality of life for 60-70% of people, thats when its time to simply leave if the US people want to tolerate their military being used for corporate interests while they become wage slaves so be it.
Also any factory in China that is leveraging US intellectual property needs to become an enemy of the state, never to set foot on US soil again otherwise be tried with treason, sharing intellectual property with any forigne nations should be treason.
These problems are fixable but only if the US people wake up, bite the bullet and start fixing these issues. The initial years will not be fun because the local markets wont respond over night, but once buisness starts up people will have jobs and things will be good, we will be isolated from slave labor nations where peoples living standards are aborant.
There will still be a need for very basic commodities trading but thats about it, not high tech manufactured goods. They are not workable to you because they would likely trash your buisness and leave you in a really bad position, IF that is the case. If you depend on a desperate work force in order to profit then you ARE the enemy. My anger is rightous, these mega companies are pure evil and exploitive, my anger is not misplaced.
Last edited by pittsflyer; 10-25-2017 at 09:40 PM..
Capitalists and republicans would fight tooth and nail against urban planning if they could not make some strategic more to create more wage slaves while making millions and then upping the rent. Targeted polices on land use development would be fought by the filthy rich. I have been to boston and the costs are so sky high you have to be a millionare to live in boston, everyone else has an hellatious commute.
The supply restrictions are a catch 22, if you remove them people will catch on real quick that becoming a doctor is no longer a golden ticket but still comes with all the brutally hard work for a decade before you start really cashing in. How many people do you think will keep becoming doctors at that point?
Regulations are part of the reason SMALL buisness is hard to keep going, but also because small buisness does not have the lobbists to get special rules made for them and they have to deal with the invisible hand of the real estate market that makes their commercial real estate mortgage or rent sky high, so sky high that you burble in sales and your done. These 300 lb gorrilas on the ballance sheet leave very little wiggle room even if things are going good for years, the save rate is so paltry because of land issues, which ties back to land use and by extention excessive land values that are near viable markets.
I have to wonder how many people are going to illicit activities on the dark web due to these issues.
The tax system becomes a give away because capitalists are SO unbelievably greedy that the govt cant just let people die on the streets because they cant find proper work. When did we get to a point as a society where this became ok, that people should just live on the streets and die?
People are not going to 4 year college because the capitalists are telling the "dirty bums" to go get a skill and then maybe you can make some money, well maybe is the operative word there, so some go do this (even in stem programs) and end up in similar wage and job quality situations only how with 5 figures of student debt, for which the capitalist says well you got a "basket weaving degree" and then if you got a stem degree you just must not be good at your job. The capitalist alway has an excuse, this is a ploy they want thing as they are. They want a nice pool of highly educated people to draw from at their leisure, their student loans, living expenses etc are not the capitalists concerns, they just want that nice pool of groveling highly skilled people to jump when they say jump becuase they hold the capital. And they wonder why everyone is pissed off?
Even slaves had more rights than a modern day wage slave. The one thing the higher stem education could be for is to get your out of the USA, most other nations have a point system and high demand stem fields gain you points. That would be the only solid tangible bennift, because everything else is at-will.
A trade war would cause the prices of imported goods to soar so high that local buisness would start producing stuff in the USA because it would be cheaper,
And overseas countries would respond with tarrifs too, destroying American exports. That would hurt the domestic economy, destroying jobs.
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initially the american consumer would eat the cost but thats the cost of getting jobs back to the USA.
Right. The jobs that would be desperately needed because of all the jobs you destroyed.
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The tarrifs would cause demand to go WAY down, people would buy less but eventually there would be enough american companies to fill the void it would not be an issue anymore. This of course is not going to happen over night.
No, first there would be a global depression lasting decades. I am not sure there would be a domestic recovery either.
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If a company wants to stay in China thats fine, while I dont have a study that states what exact percentage the US markets contribute to these factories, I would be willing to bet that these other nations you listed are statisticly insignificant
So you are willing to bet the entire world economy and well being for decades on a guess? You do realize that I listed only a few countries, and China alone is not statistically insignificant. The reality is that even if you pull out both the US and the EU (which will never happen) the rest of the planet combined is still a huge economy.
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(Japan produces alot of stuff, they may import alot too but mostly raw material and they would be the one excepton on your list). I believe that that a 50% tarrif in the USA (and especailly if Europe followed suit) would cripple these companies and drive them to bankruptcy (thats the intention of a trade war to bankrupt your enemy and make no mistake these companies are the equivalent of modern day communism).
Your beliefs are substantiated.
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In addition to the tarrifs you simultaniously tax all corporate profits at 90% beyond a certian point (more than XX dollars in profits and anything after that is taxed at 90%). We used to do this and it compelled reinvestment in the company and job creation.
You probably have a valid point here. As usual, you take your thoughts to insane lengths, but reasonable levels of gcorporate taxation to encourage more responsible corporate behavior is probably a good idea.
And overseas countries would respond with tarrifs too, destroying American exports. That would hurt the domestic economy, destroying jobs.
Right. The jobs that would be desperately needed because of all the jobs you destroyed.
No, first there would be a global depression lasting decades. I am not sure there would be a domestic recovery either.
So you are willing to bet the entire world economy and well being for decades on a guess? You do realize that I listed only a few countries, and China alone is not statistically insignificant. The reality is that even if you pull out both the US and the EU (which will never happen) the rest of the planet combined is still a huge economy.
Your beliefs are substantiated.
You probably have a valid point here. As usual, you take your thoughts to insane lengths, but reasonable levels of gcorporate taxation to encourage more responsible corporate behavior is probably a good idea.
If other nations like china responded with their own tarrifs it would totally wreck their economy, they are litterally dependant on us to be first world yet they hate us behind our backs. They might raise tarrifs for a while until the fed govt started cracking down on intellectual property and assets leaving the USA. Stop shipping off all the stuff that makes building a factory in China possible and watch them squirm, of course enough damage has probabably already been done with factorys already built over there that the only way we would win it is with a combination of tanking their economy AND a shooting war blowing up their means of production with cruise missles (which is really our property), of course thats radical and would lead to WW3 but maybe thats where we are, we can no longer tolerate huge amounts of intellectual property and means of production to keep leaving the US just becuase a few capitalists decide it. You want to be a capitalist here, fine, you want to go to china get a plane ticket and all the means of production and intellecutal property stays here, the problem with intellectual property enforcement over seas is the only way to do that is with cruise missles, they use some tech to build something in china, the only way to stop it is with force, I know you will disagree but we cant keep letting tech outside of our boarders, thats how we keep our thumb on everyone else and have a solid middle class.
Tell China we are going to do it, give them like 2 hrs to get the people out and level the factory, if they retaliate then we bring the chineese society to its knees never to rise again. We need to become nationalistic and we need to build a way better iron dome. We need to stop feeding our enemys so that they can threaten us later on, its utter stupidity. We should have weapons so advanced its like a starwars movie and China can be in history books, a society that once was, then return the rightful govt of china back from Tiawan.
When you blow every body elses stuff up they will be begging for imports ... that will never come. We can produce it and dump it in the ocean on TV in front of them.
Maybe I should run for senate. I would have to develop a chant and have rallys and rile people up, the chant and hand gesture is of absolute crtical importance, its like a logo or name.
I think there are plenty of jobs out there- it's just that the market has shifted. And the changes happen more quickly now, so you have to be just that more flexible.
I work two jobs, one full-time and one part-time. I think a lot of people are doing that now. It's enough to where I have what I want in terms of disposable income, but not so much I feel overwhelmed. Neither job entail what I went to college for, however, having a degree did help my employability to an extent.
My part-time job is freelancing as an interior designer. Much of business comes through social media. I think you have to be aware of your online presence more than ever. And make it work to your advantage.
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