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People have been worrying about that since the industrial revolution... look where we are now.
And honestly, i dont see how a universal basic incomd is any different than those welfare programs
Unfortunately (or fortunately) this is going to happen. IT and automation experts know that it is going to happen. What is not clear is when this will happen. But the economic system will fall apart well before all human work is 100% automated. A point will be reached where not enough people will have jobs so the system will not be able run anymore because there is not enough money to sustain it.
People may have been thinking about this since the industrial revolution, but the technology was not advanced enough to make it feasible at that time. However, with present day technology and continual advancements, it is very feasible. It will happen. There is no question about it.
The only concerns are when this will happen, and at what point the economy is going to fall apart. At 90% automation? 80%? Or as low as 40%?
And where will that money come from? The government can't just print out money to hand out. It would slowly cause inflation.
If your answer is tax, then how is that fair?? Those who work for a living will be paying for those who don't. This isn't a new concept...
The money is already there. It's the same money that currently funds the welfare system. It would need to go along with a flat tax or something similar... everyone would be taxed the same on the UBI money. Keep in mind that a very, very, very small percentage of your taxes go towards the basic safety net parts of the welfare system (food stamps, housing assistance, cash assistance). By far, most of it goes to the military, social security, and health coverage (Medicaid, Medicare, and subsidies). I'm not sure if the UBI would replace social security and health coverage (though I imagine that by that point, we'll be on universal healthcare anyway, making it a moot point).
There's no "how's that fair??" because everyone will be getting the same amount of cash. So whether you are a 1 percenter or living on welfare now, you'll get your UBI. If you want to quit your job and live on the amount that you receive, you can certainly do that. Most people aren't going to want to live on the edge of poverty, though, I wouldn't think.
Companies Always Go With the Cheaper and Better Option
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Hospitality
Everyone overlooks economics. Machines cost money too. All machines do is lower the cost of performing a task. They don't eliminate it. A machine can probably make 100 coffees per minute, but Starbucks doesn't get 100 customers per minute so that speed advantage is useless. The only advantage is cost. This means that the cost of a person will be lower or equal to the cost of running the machine. So income will go down. However, so will cost of goods and services due to machines.
I respectfully disagree. Machines do lower the cost of performing a task as you have said, but it is cheaper to have a machine do the work than a person. This has already happened and is now accelerating. It costs less to use a machine to do the work of a person. If a person at a coffee shop earns $7.50 an hour, but a machine that is able to do his or her job only costs $1.00 an hour to run, which option will the management employ? Clearly the cheapest option. Automation always involves creating a device that can do the job cheaper than a person, otherwise it will not be used since it is the more expensive option.
The arguments we are having over $15 minimum wage got me to thinking...
We are headed for a catastrophe when automatic cars are perfected to the point where there's no more cabbies, Uber, or truck drivers. Deliveries of pizza, flowers, etc will be made by drones and robots in self-driving cars. We're going to need a universal basic income before the end of my lifetime. There won't be enough jobs for people.
Thoughts?
No. Arguing for a minimum wage level is not the same thing as universal income. The former is to prevent abuse of workers. The latter is to provide income that is not necessarily worked for.
We'll be fine. You can't stop progress. The history of mankind is one of progress. The ways of providing for oneself change, but they don't stop.
Remember the days when there were roomfuls of secretaries typing? Those jobs are gone, replaced by one person with a computer. Remember when there were hordes of ditch diggers? Those jobs are gone, replaced by machines manned by a few people. There were once men who hand made carts to be pulled by horses, but those jobs are gone due to the automobile. It used to take a lot of people to hand pick cotton, until the cotton gin came along.
But other jobs opened up.
It'll be fine. It's hard to go through it, and will ruin some lives in the transition. But for those growing up in the age of new technology, they will get jobs related to the new technology, plus others that still remain from the prior generation.
No. Arguing for a minimum wage level is not the same thing as universal income. The former is to prevent abuse of workers. The latter is to provide income that is not necessarily worked for.
We'll be fine. You can't stop progress. The history of mankind is one of progress. The ways of providing for oneself change, but they don't stop.
Remember the days when there were roomfuls of secretaries typing? Those jobs are gone, replaced by one person with a computer. Remember when there were hordes of ditch diggers? Those jobs are gone, replaced by machines manned by a few people. There were once men who hand made carts to be pulled by horses, but those jobs are gone due to the automobile. It used to take a lot of people to hand pick cotton, until the cotton gin came along.
But other jobs opened up.
It'll be fine. It's hard to go through it, and will ruin some lives in the transition. But for those growing up in the age of new technology, they will get jobs related to the new technology, plus others that still remain from the prior generation.
Other jobs will open up, but they will be done with computers, robots, and other machines, not people. The aim of companies is to reduce labor costs. Machines can do that far more cheaply than people can. Also, machines don't have attitudes, don't need rest, don't need to only work 40 to 90 hours a week, and don't call in sick.
The money is already there. It's the same money that currently funds the welfare system. It would need to go along with a flat tax or something similar... everyone would be taxed the same on the UBI money. Keep in mind that a very, very, very small percentage of your taxes go towards the basic safety net parts of the welfare system (food stamps, housing assistance, cash assistance). By far, most of it goes to the military, social security, and health coverage (Medicaid, Medicare, and subsidies). I'm not sure if the UBI would replace social security and health coverage (though I imagine that by that point, we'll be on universal healthcare anyway, making it a moot point).
There's no "how's that fair??" because everyone will be getting the same amount of cash. So whether you are a 1 percenter or living on welfare now, you'll get your UBI. If you want to quit your job and live on the amount that you receive, you can certainly do that. Most people aren't going to want to live on the edge of poverty, though, I wouldn't think.
I agree with flat tax rate but I don't see how UBI solves anything...
This just seems like another style of tax refund
Let's say I pay a total of 20,000 in tax per year and my neighbor pays nothing because he doesn't work. Why is he getting back the same as me in UBI??? Feels like I am the one paying for his life choices...
Last edited by Liar_Liar; 11-26-2017 at 10:08 AM..
So who is going to buy the stuff the machines create if nobody has money? Unless of course we eliminate the vast majority of the population.
Those in power have in the past been okay with elimination of people. The Holocaust will be nothing compared to what is coming when they decide to go with their desires. Those in power will have everything already. They won't need people to be buying anything.
why not instead of basic government provided income, that one just get a job instead. Minimum wages jobs should be limited to part time high school kids under 18
People are not entitled to jobs. There aren't many part time high school kids. Most high school kids are in high school full time during the day.
Basic income also eliminates many social programs. No more food stamps, no more cash assistance, no more section 8, at least as far as I understand it. So let's say it's $24,000 per adult and 12,000 per child, per year. (I'm just making up the numbers. I have no idea what it would actually be so I'm just using numbers that make it easy for mathematical purposes.)
Out of that $2,000 per month, a single person would need to cover their own rent, their food, their utilities, and so on. If you had a job that earned you $100K, then great; you would now get $124K. If you chose not to work at all, then you'd need to make it work on the $24,000 per month. If you were married/partnered up, then you'd have $48K as a couple to make work or to augment your income.
Some people would undoubtedly just take the money and make it work. Many (most?) others would add this income to whatever they were making at their jobs. There would be no welfare, though, so if someone couldn't make it work on their stipend, then they'd need to figure it out by getting a job or eating ramen for the rest of the month.
That's my understanding of how a basic income would work. It's completely fair; everyone, rich and poor alike, gets the same amount of money. What one chooses to do beyond that is on them.
It would cause the amount of money at play in the economy to go up considerably, therefore the inflation that would follow would be tremendous. The money wouldn't be worth much of anything. Goods would be more valuable than the money and prices would be high for basic necessities.
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Companies Always Go With the Cheaper and Better Option
The New Technology is Automation
