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1. I'm talking about people having the personal experience of being marginalized. I'm not claiming they're being marginalized *because* they're men... just that people are marginalized for a variety of reasons. It's a very common human experience. Yes, it happens to men too- even white ones! And when it happens, we don't have a handy -ism to blame it on.
2. For a slew of reasons. One of the more important ones being that men vastly outnumber women in STEM majors.
People are marginalized for a reason. Can you provide an example of what you are speaking about?
Women are often intentionally discouraged from pursuing STEM majors. In high school, I was told that I probably couldn't handle the math of working in science. In college, I passed Calculus, Statistics, and all the rest. I also knew a woman computer science PhD candidate who, when asking for some minor advice from her adviser, was instead told that perhaps she should try a different program.
It's funny how people will just discount another person's experience as not being real just because they haven't experienced it themselves.
Why is it hard for, in this case, white men, to accept that the workplace is a different experience for women and people of color? You really think that millions of people are complaining about nothing? America has a documented history of sexism and racism and you believe ALL of it has just evaporated over time? It no longer exists? Or it vaguely exists in the world but somehow it doesn't creep into the workplace? Do you think the sexists and racists on 4chan or Reddit don't have jobs or hire people? Those terrible people bring their awful ideas to work with them.
What about having empathy and seeking to understand? Why not in your next meeting, observing if the woman or person of color at the meeting are being heard or are they being talked over and ignored?
1. I'm talking about people having the personal experience of being marginalized. I'm not claiming they're being marginalized *because* they're men... just that people are marginalized for a variety of reasons. It's a very common human experience. Yes, it happens to men too- even white ones! And when it happens, we don't have a handy -ism to blame it on.
2. For a slew of reasons. One of the more important ones being that men vastly outnumber women in STEM majors.
Because I have an opinion, and I will state it if I like. You don't need to listen or agree. Better yet you're perfectly free to explain why I'm wrong.
If a woman has the personal experience of being marginalized, it may very well be *because* she's female. Or it may be for one of numerous other reasons that people have that experience.
In my experience, people with a handy -ism tend to blame their personal problems on that. Sometimes it's true. Often it's not.
Who cares what your opinion is of something you have never experienced compared to actual research?
Well, I will point out that I was in the top 1% on my math SATs and I was told I would make a great education major. I hate kids lol. So there is a reason women are outnumbered in STEM. No mentors, advising against it, I could go on. There are many reasons that women don't major in STEM (and that men don't go into nursing despite the fact that more male nurses are separately needed).
That said, ultimately women need to stop waiting for men to fight their fight for them.
Women, sit at the goddamned soda counter and don't leave until they call the police to drag you out. That's it. Fight and never stop. Find allies and mount an offense.
In addition, as this post suggests, you might be discriminated against for how you are working. The tippy top of the pyramid favors jerk behavior. You want a piece of that? Play their game. You can't be a nice girl and play for hundreds of thousands. That is just not how that game is played. People up there are hated. Deal with it.
In what way is complaining to HR going to help?
Most people don't expect women to go into engineering or the like... hence you were steered toward education. Call that sexism is you like... maybe it is. But it's also true that interest in tech is FAR more common among men... and so lazy people just assume that you're like the vast majority of women out there have zero interest in tinkering with their computer or their car.
In my life I have known precisely ONE female who would diagnose, take apart, modify, and reconfigure a computer just because she was interested in it. One. And I kid you not- she is now a he. I've never met ANY woman who would work on a car.
Whereas I've known easily dozens of males who will take apart, modify, repair etc. their computer. Or their car. Or house wiring. Or the dishwasher. Not saying women can't do these things- I've no doubt that a few unicorns do. But they're rare. Women are rarely interested in mechanical/electronic tinkering.
That's a big part of why there are so few female engineers. It's why you were steered toward education. And I agree that the only way this will change is if women make the change. Thing is that I see feminists blaming men and demanding preferential treatment. I DON'T see feminists working on their own computers, cars, etc. And I saw very few of them in engineering.
How can you expect women to be equally represented in fields that they by and large aren't interested in?
The second is to consider moving to a new company. What does "tech" mean anyway? Every big industry is highly technical now. There is IT and analytics and information science everywhere. Find something you're passionate about and find a company that looks interesting (or a few companies) and drive.
Most people don't expect women to go into engineering or the like... hence you were steered toward education. Call that sexism is you like... maybe it is. But it's also true that interest in tech is FAR more common among men... and so lazy people just assume that you're like the vast majority of women out there have zero interest in tinkering with their computer or their car.
In my life I have known precisely ONE female who would diagnose, take apart, modify, and reconfigure a computer just because she was interested in it. One. And I kid you not- she is now a he. I've never met ANY woman who would work on a car.
Whereas I've known easily dozens of males who will take apart, modify, repair etc. their computer. Or their car. Or house wiring. Or the dishwasher. Not saying women can't do these things- I've no doubt that a few unicorns do. But they're rare. Women are rarely interested in mechanical/electronic tinkering.
That's a big part of why there are so few female engineers. It's why you were steered toward education. And I agree that the only way this will change is if women make the change. Thing is that I see feminists blaming men and demanding preferential treatment. I DON'T see feminists working on their own computers, cars, etc. And I saw very few of them in engineering.
How can you expect women to be equally represented in fields that they by and large aren't interested in?
Most people don't expect women to go into engineering or the like... hence you were steered toward education. Call that sexism is you like... maybe it is. But it's also true that interest in tech is FAR more common among men... and so lazy people just assume that you're like the vast majority of women out there have zero interest in tinkering with their computer or their car.
No its not. Stop spouting your opinion as if it is fact. Until high school females have as much interest in STEM as males. In fact they have higher interest in science than their male counterparts during the pre-teen ages.
If there is less interest in engineering specifically, maybe its because society and men like you tell women and girls it isn't for them.
Quote:
In my life I have known precisely ONE female who would diagnose, take apart, modify, and reconfigure a computer just because she was interested in it One. And I kid you not- she is now a he.
So what? I know dozens of woman engineers. For someone claiming to be knowledgable about tech you sure rely on anecdotes instead of data for making generalizations. Not very rational or logical.
Quote:
Whereas I've known easily dozens of males who will take apart, modify, repair etc. their computer. Or their car. Or house wiring. Or the dishwasher. Not saying women can't do these things- I've no doubt that a few unicorns do. But they're rare. Women are rarely interested in mechanical/electronic tinkering.
Belied by the actual study of women. Have you been to a maker space? The one by me is nearly 50/50 for kids under the age of 12. It only begins to separate for the teens.
Quote:
That's a big part of why there are so few female engineers. It's why you were steered toward education. And I agree that the only way this will change is if women make the change. Thing is that I see feminists blaming men and demanding preferential treatment. I DON'T see feminists working on their own computers, cars, etc. And I saw very few of them in engineering.
Ah, so education is the only acceptable field for women who are excellent at math. She obviously couldn't be steered towards being a mathematician, or a scientist, or anything except teacher.
Quote:
How can you expect women to be equally represented in fields that they by and large aren't interested in?
The above statement is a lie. More women graduate with STEM degrees. This is a FACT. Clearly the interest is there. The workplace opportunities are not.
People are marginalized for a reason. Can you provide an example of what you are speaking about?
Women are often intentionally discouraged from pursuing STEM majors. In high school, I was told that I probably couldn't handle the math of working in science. In college, I passed Calculus, Statistics, and all the rest. I also knew a woman computer science PhD candidate who, when asking for some minor advice from her adviser, was instead told that perhaps she should try a different program.
It's funny how people will just discount another person's experience as not being real just because they haven't experienced it themselves.
Why is it hard for, in this case, white men, to accept that the workplace is a different experience for women and people of color? You really think that millions of people are complaining about nothing? America has a documented history of sexism and racism and you believe ALL of it has just evaporated over time? It no longer exists? Or it vaguely exists in the world but somehow it doesn't creep into the workplace? Do you think the sexists and racists on 4chan or Reddit don't have jobs or hire people? Those terrible people bring their awful ideas to work with them.
What about having empathy and seeking to understand? Why not in your next meeting, observing if the woman or person of color at the meeting are being heard or are they being talked over and ignored?
People can be marginalized for social reasons. Maybe they're a different religion than the group. Maybe they're a different age. From a different socio-economic background. Have different hobbies. Don't kiss up to the boss. Maybe they're just ugly and weird. There are a thousand ways that even an evil white male can have very much the same experience as described in the OP.
But with no convenient -ism to blame it on... we have to look at other possible reasons including our own behavior and personal limitations. Now the OP could very well have been discriminated against becaise she was female. I've not denied that. Just saying that it could have been for different reasons entirely. Because marginalization DOES happen for non -ism reasons.
And I'll remind you that this is a discussion about whether or not gender discrimination in tech (in general) is real, and whether or not the OP's experience (specifically) was in fact gender discrimination. Discussions mean that grown-ups offer opinions- and they may not always agree. I'm sorry you feel oppressed by my opinion and personal experience.
Feel free to explain how people can only be marginalized for reasons with an -ism attached.
Last edited by turkey-head; 12-21-2017 at 07:26 AM..
No its not. Stop spouting your opinion as if it is fact. Until high school females have as much interest in STEM as males. In fact they have higher interest in science than their male counterparts during the pre-teen ages.
If there is less interest in engineering specifically, maybe its because society and men like you tell women and girls it isn't for them.
So what? I know dozens of woman engineers. For someone claiming to be knowledgable about tech you sure rely on anecdotes instead of data for making generalizations. Not very rational or logical.
Belied by the actual study of women. Have you been to a maker space? The one by me is nearly 50/50 for kids under the age of 12. It only begins to separate for the teens.
Ah, so education is the only acceptable field for women who are excellent at math. She obviously couldn't be steered towards being a mathematician, or a scientist, or anything except teacher.
The above statement is a lie. More women graduate with STEM degrees. This is a FACT. Clearly the interest is there. The workplace opportunities are not.
You just posted a study clearly stating that women lose interest in STEM subjects after childhood That's supposed to back up your case??
Look, we can debate the reasons why that happens. And you might find that we agree more than we disagree. But the fact remains that as your article clearly states, women are in general far less likely than men to be interested in STEM subjects.
Maybe y'all could remedy this by actually learning math, working on computers and machinery, and teaching the girls in your life about that?
Nah... that's too hard. Gets your hands dirty. So much easier to just blame men for your problems
Most people don't expect women to go into engineering or the like... hence you were steered toward education. Call that sexism is you like... maybe it is. But it's also true that interest in tech is FAR more common among men... and so lazy people just assume that you're like the vast majority of women out there have zero interest in tinkering with their computer or their car.
In my life I have known precisely ONE female who would diagnose, take apart, modify, and reconfigure a computer just because she was interested in it. One. And I kid you not- she is now a he. I've never met ANY woman who would work on a car.
Your personal circle may be skewed for some reason, or perhaps you just don't know that many "females" all that well.
My own circles skew to the geek/tech/science side, admittedly, but I wouldn't even know where to start at counting the women and girls I know who routinely make physical repairs or upgrades to their computers, and/or build their own towers. A lot, anyway.
Oddly, it never occurred to me to pursue a tech career despite the fact that I assembled my first computer out of spare scavenged parts, got a top score on the math section of the SAT, did well in AP Calculus in high school, and studied coding languages as a hobby from middle school through undergrad. It was just something I never visualized myself doing for a living, and I don't recall any teachers or counselors ever suggesting it. (I'm quite happy in my career, so this isn't a regret, so much as a curious observation.) I think this is fairly common among women of my generation and before, which is why I'm pleased to see pushes at the primary and secondary school levels to get girls involved in robotics, coding, etc., as well as greater media representation of women and girls in STEM-related roles. Clearly plenty of us have an aptitude for it, but sometimes people need a little push to consider heading down less-beaten paths.
People are marginalized for a reason. Can you provide an example of what you are speaking about?
Women are often intentionally discouraged from pursuing STEM majors. In high school, I was told that I probably couldn't handle the math of working in science. In college, I passed Calculus, Statistics, and all the rest. I also knew a woman computer science PhD candidate who, when asking for some minor advice from her adviser, was instead told that perhaps she should try a different program.
These are all minor irritants. Anyone who has an ability and passion for this field will just disregard them and treat them like background noise. Men also are often discouraged from pursuing a particular field due to the perceived lack of ability or other character traits...
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlygal
It's funny how people will just discount another person's experience as not being real just because they haven't experienced it themselves.
Why is it hard for, in this case, white men, to accept that the workplace is a different experience for women and people of color? You really think that millions of people are complaining about nothing? America has a documented history of sexism and racism and you believe ALL of it has just evaporated over time? It no longer exists? Or it vaguely exists in the world but somehow it doesn't creep into the workplace? Do you think the sexists and racists on 4chan or Reddit don't have jobs or hire people? Those terrible people bring their awful ideas to work with them.
What about having empathy and seeking to understand? Why not in your next meeting, observing if the woman or person of color at the meeting are being heard or are they being talked over and ignored?
It is funny how you blame white men for everything. I am afraid Asian and in particular Indian men would have to share the blame since they are now often in the majority of at least IT departments in the financial industry. I do believe that women have a different experience in the workplace. But so do shy, socially awkward people of both genders, people who are obese or who don't like to shower. Should we consider that they are all discriminated against?
But I do believe all this talk about how horrible men are and how they mistreat women is overblown. Simply because feminist mafia benefits from claiming discrimination at every chance, demonizing men and thus getting more money and power for their own purposes. I have worked in IT/software development for more than 10 years. There were always few women around. But those who had good ideas and were technically good have done well and are widely respected.
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That's supposed to back up your case??