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I was talking to a friend the other day who I use as a personal reference on job applications. In our conversation, she mentioned how she had been contacted by someone for a job I had applied for (last year), and told this employer when asked about my personality that I am quiet and reserved, but that shouldn't be a problem for that particular job. She said that she didn't want to lie or be dishonest to someone asking about me for a potential job.
She knows that I was not chosen for a particular job because another reference (a former supervisor) I had given to that employer used the same words (quiet and reserved) to describe me. She also knows that I have had an exceedingly hard time finding a good job since moving to my current location. I would have thought that as my friend, she would be willing to say whatever is necessary to help me get a job. It's not like I'm an ex-convict, child molester, wife abuser, alcoholic or drug user and I'm asking her to conceal that from an employer. Far from that! I'm not applying for high level, high paying jobs either. In my opinion, there are many people out there of questionable character that get far better jobs than anything I'm being considered for. Am I being unrealistic to expect my friend to bend the truth a little bit if it helps me to get a good job?
I'd want to hurt your "friend." What a jerk. Time to cut that cord, is my opinion.
I don't believe it's a matter of "bending" the truth either. There is no reason whatsoever to mention that you are quiet and reserved. No doubt that has nothing to do with the skills required for the job. Your friend could easily have said that you were confident in your technical abilities, for example.
I'm furious with this person on your behalf. if it was me, I'd never speak with this person again.
If you have absolutely no other reference available, and don't see any way around using this person at all, then I'd ask them to please only talk about your technical abilities and your confidence related to them.
But, really, what a jerk. And that's the nicest term I can think of. I would never have anything to do with that person again.
There's honest, and then there's honest with a mean factor. This person was being mean. Who knows why. Power trip, they're a sociopath, who knows. But they are not your friend.
I'd want to hurt your "friend." What a jerk. Time to cut that cord, is my opinion.
I don't believe it's a matter of "bending" the truth either. There is no reason whatsoever to mention that you are quiet and reserved. No doubt that has nothing to do with the skills required for the job. Your friend could easily have said that you were confident in your technical abilities, for example.
I'm furious with this person on your behalf. if it was me, I'd never speak with this person again.
If you have absolutely no other reference available, and don't see any way around using this person at all, then I'd ask them to please only talk about your technical abilities and your confidence related to them.
But, really, what a jerk. And that's the nicest term I can think of. I would never have anything to do with that person again.
There's honest, and then there's honest with a mean factor. This person was being mean. Who knows why. Power trip, they're a sociopath, who knows. But they are not your friend.
You would want to hurt someone for speaking honestly? What does that make you?
If the OP had any specific things she desired her friend to tell the company she should have discussed the situation with the friend before listing her as a reference. For someone to answer questions frankly and openly without malice is what otherwise would be expected. There is no indication by the OP that the friend was even alerted that such a call might be coming.
I'd take that friend over one who would fly off the handle and call a stranger a jerk, mean or a sociopath any day of the week.
OP's friend could express a more positive quality or set of qualities rather than bring up the qualities that A) he is insecure about and B) he has mentioned to his friend has cost him an opportunity elsewhere. Maybe OP has some qualities that far exceed his "quiet and reserved" demeanor.
Yes, exactly! Why would someone who is supposed to be your friend go and use a phrase to describe you that she was told had cost you a job opportunity before when another reference said the same thing?
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Originally Posted by MLSFan
Maybe he shouldn't use a personal reference but a professional one
I have both, MLSFan. Some employers want just professional references, while others ask for both professional and personal references.
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Originally Posted by PriscillaVanilla
To many people, being an introvert is a bad thing. It's unfair they see it that way, but they do. Even for jobs that require little or no interaction with co-workers. It's the absolute worst thing that could be revealed to a potential employer. Most employers would hire an ex-con before they'd hire an introvert. I'm not saying that lightly. Discrimination against introverts or "quiet" people is widespread and socially acceptable.
Also, your "friend" should not have volunteered to be a reference if she had anything negative to say.
I have two strikes against me with potential employers: 1. That I'm over 50. 2. That I'm an introvert.
Do employers not realize that introverts do have the ability to communicate with other people when necessary? If a customer asks me for assistance, or just wants to strike up a conversation with me, I can speak to that person just as effectively as an extroverted person can, answer their questions and offer them assistance. The only difference between myself as an introverted person and someone who is extroverted is that I don't often seek out opportunities to talk to strangers before they have approached me. I am so tired of the bias against introverts in our society.
I am questioning whether I should continue using this "friend" as a personal reference. She and I will have to talk about this soon.
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Originally Posted by AllisonHB
This is probably a better option. I choose "friends" who are also co-workers. They have first hand knowledge about my skills/abilities and won't be put into an awkward situation; trying to answer questions about something they haven't witnessed. Its also slightly less personal, so easier to be up front about the match of you and job.
OP no one should feel they need to overstate your qualities or be dishonest so you will get the job.
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Originally Posted by SFBayBoomer
I find the following statement in the OP's first and only post to be troubling: "I would have thought that as my friend, she would be willing to say whatever is necessary to help me get a job."
Really? Anything that would get you a job?
AllisonHB: I do have one reference who is a former co-worker. I don't really consider him a "friend" as we've never socialized together, but I've been over to his apartment to help him with computer issues (no, that is not my employment field in case you're wondering).
AllisonHB and SFBayBoomer: Suppose you have a friend who hasn't had a FT job in over a year, and has only been surviving on low-paying part-time work and tapping his or her savings? Does that change your POV at all about what you're willing to say in giving a reference for this person to help them get a good job?
I don't expect anyone to tell an employer that I have job skills that I don't actually possess. On the other hand, what harm is done by perhaps telling an employer that I have better social or verbal communication skills than I actually have (knowing that is an area that may need improvement) if it will help me to get a decent paying job that will pay my living expenses? Do you believe that everyone goes into a new job having perfect skills for that job, without any need for improvement in any area?
Did you ask this person to be your reference, explain the job you're applying to and what you wanted them to speak to?
I think expecting your friend to do something this important and then not provide any guidance is a failure on your own part. Whenever I ask for reference, I usually provide a cheat sheet for them. But I also have a group of folks that I always use for references, and they are asked well in advance to see if they are willing to be my reference (typically before my job search even starts).
On the flip side, I've also received called out of the blue from companies doing reference checks for folks that I haven't heard from in ages. In those cases, you bet I'm going to be as honest as possible. I may not offer anything voluntarily - but if I'm asked "how would you described joe's personality" - I'm not going to say Joe is friendly and outgoing when actually, Joe is aloof.
That said, if you did prep your friend and they still offered something that you feel hurt your chances, then you need to seek other options.
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Originally Posted by manyroads
....
I have two strikes against me with potential employers: 1. That I'm over 50. 2. That I'm an introvert. Do employers not realize that introverts do have the ability to communicate with other people when necessary? If a customer asks me for assistance, or just wants to strike up a conversation with me, I can speak to that person just as effectively as an extroverted person can, answer their questions and offer them assistance. The only difference between myself as an introverted person and someone who is extroverted is that I don't often seek out opportunities to talk to strangers before they have approached me. I am so tired of the bias against introverts in our society.
I am questioning whether I should continue using this "friend" as a personal reference. She and I will have to talk about this soon.
....
That may be the case - but unless all extroverts lack that skill. You're argument doesn't really matter. The extravert can do the job and potentially add to the group dynamic.
In the end - hiring is subjective. Most people want a certain personality that will fit the culture. And there are those that hate extroverts and rather have folks that keep to themselves than social butterflies.
AllisonHB and SFBayBoomer: Suppose you have a friend who hasn't had a FT job in over a year, and has only been surviving on low-paying part-time work and tapping his or her savings? Does that change your POV at all about what you're willing to say in giving a reference for this person to help them get a good job?
I have never had any friends who were unemployed unless they decided to leave the work force for one reason or another (to raise children or to start their own business, for example).
To answer your question about whether I would be willing to say "whatever it takes" to get a friend an interview, no, I would not. I would ask my friend what they expected of me when it came to a reference and if they suggested I lie about their quiet personality when they are applying for a high-paying sales job, for example, when the ad mentioned the employer was looking for a self-motivated, gregarious employee is desired, I would suggest to my friend that they look elsewhere for a recommendation.
I would then suggest my friend do some soul-searching to determine a career that better fits their personality. I would be pro-active in gathering information and resources to help them and would coach them, including roll-playing job interviews, if they wanted me to do that, though ideally they would hire their own career coach. For example, at most universities and community colleges there are test centers where you can learn the best careers for your personality type and can also meet with counselors who will guide and motivate you. And of course, there are many classes, including interpersonal communication, that would be very helpful for you to take.
Quote:
Originally Posted by manyroads
I don't expect anyone to tell an employer that I have job skills that I don't actually possess. On the other hand, what harm is done by perhaps telling an employer that I have better social or verbal communication skills than I actually have (knowing that is an area that may need improvement) if it will help me to get a decent paying job that will pay my living expenses? Do you believe that everyone goes into a new job having perfect skills for that job, without any need for improvement in any area?
Do you understand that communication is a job skill that you must have to be successful in most higher-paying careers? If you don't have good social or verbal communication skills, it is up to you to improve yourself, especially as you have been out of work a year and have already had plenty of time to improve in this area.
Instead of blaming your friend for not lying about you, why don't you work at improving an essential job skill?
I have never had any friends who were unemployed unless they decided to leave the work force for one reason or another (to raise children or to start their own business, for example).
To answer your question about whether I would be willing to say "whatever it takes" to get a friend an interview, no, I would not. I would ask my friend what they expected of me when it came to a reference and if they suggested I lie about their quiet personality when they are applying for a high-paying sales job, for example, when the ad mentioned the employer was looking for a self-motivated, gregarious employee is desired, I would suggest to my friend that they look elsewhere for a recommendation.
I would then suggest my friend do some soul-searching to determine a career that better fits their personality. I would be pro-active in gathering information and resources to help them and would coach them, including roll-playing job interviews, if they wanted me to do that, though ideally they would hire their own career coach. For example, at most universities and community colleges there are test centers where you can learn the best careers for your personality type and can also meet with counselors who will guide and motivate you. And of course, there are many classes, including interpersonal communication, that would be very helpful for you to take.
Do you understand that communication is a job skill that you must have to be successful in most higher-paying careers? If you don't have good social or verbal communication skills, it is up to you to improve yourself, especially as you have been out of work a year and have already had plenty of time to improve in this area.
Instead of blaming your friend for not lying about you, why don't you work at improving an essential job skill?
I appreciate you taking the time to write out such a lengthy reply, but I'd like to address some of your points since you are writing with a lack of information about me or my background.
- I am without a full time job because I relocated to another state without having job waiting for me in new location. I was aware of the risks involved in doing this, and I chose to do it anyway. I felt that my life had become too stagnant in my old location and I needed a change, not just in location but also hopefully in my work.
- I've already done the testing and career counseling, more than once, actually. The tests produced different results at different times, except to confirm what I already knew, that I'm an introvert. If a test tells you that you're best suited to become, for example, an aerospace engineer, but you have neither the financial resources or the inclination to go back to school to retrain for such a career at the present stage of your life, then what good are the tests doing you? Computer careers are hot right now. I'm always hearing advertisements from local schools that promise you a high-paying job if you just enroll with them and take their courses. But realistically, I'm a man in my fifties with no one to support me but myself. It's hard enough trying to make ends meet now working a part-time job let alone trying to keep a roof over my head and taking classes to train for a new career when there's no guarantee if I did all of that anyone would even hire me at my age. Age discrimination is a big issue for people over 50. I've applied for some jobs, like selling cars, that might not be the best match for my personality, but when you want to get a certain level of income, sometimes you have to go outside the box. I'm tired of the work I did in my old location. To get an income over $40K/yr without training for a new career, my options are limited. I even tried applying for a job with the TSA, and well into the hiring process, I got rejected because they claimed that I could not pass their hearing test! (I subsequently went to another facility and had a hearing test done on my own, and was told there is nothing wrong with my hearing)
- When I was in college, I was required to take a speech/oral communications class where I had to get up and talk in front of the class. I hated it, but I passed the course. Years later when I was out in the working world, a friend I had gone to high school with suggested I try taking the Dale Carnegie Course in Effective Speaking and Human Relations. I signed up for the course, shelled out the $700 or whatever it was to enroll, and forced myself to attend each session. I did miss one or two sessions at my regular location, but made them up by attending at another location. The course was promoted as being something that would change your life. I did everything I was supposed to do, and made the speeches in front of the group even though I hated doing it. I can do that sort of thing when push comes to shove; it's just not something that comes naturally to me or that I enjoy doing. About the only thing that I haven't done to improve my oral communications skills is to join a Toastmasters group.
But we're really getting off topic with all of this. My point was that I don't think I'm being unreasonable by expecting someone who is supposed to be my friend to try to play up my positive attributes and minimize (or preferably not even mention) any negative attributes or weaknesses that I might have when talking to a potential employer. The job that she was asked to provide a reference for wasn't even a FT, career-oriented position; it was just a temporary job that I had applied for to make some money while continuing my search for a FT position. The fact that I'm quiet wasn't even relevant to being able to perform the tasks in that job.
I only put professional references down that I know I had a good relationship with. I have a reference letter from my previous boss as well. I would never put s personal reference on a resume and never have been asked for one. Just seems like it would be a bad idea.
AllisonHB and SFBayBoomer: Suppose you have a friend who hasn't had a FT job in over a year, and has only been surviving on low-paying part-time work and tapping his or her savings? Does that change your POV at all about what you're willing to say in giving a reference for this person to help them get a good job?
I don't expect anyone to tell an employer that I have job skills that I don't actually possess. On the other hand, what harm is done by perhaps telling an employer that I have better social or verbal communication skills than I actually have (knowing that is an area that may need improvement) if it will help me to get a decent paying job that will pay my living expenses? Do you believe that everyone goes into a new job having perfect skills for that job, without any need for improvement in any area?
No, not really. A candidate should not be misrepresented just because they need the job. There are thousands of people who need them just as badly; including your competition for this position. I would still be tactfully honest in my reply as a reference. That's my "job" as reference. It is not to "sell" someone. The last thing I would want for a friend is to knowingly put them into a position that will set them up to fail or one that would make them miserable. Just don't see how being deceitful is being helpful or even necessary. Someone willing to fudge the truth might not be all that trustworthy about other things.
IMHO, a reference shouldn't be the primary source of information about a candidate's suitability....not at all.....many employers never contact them. By the time I talk to someone's references I have a pretty good idea about their suitability already. Sometimes the reference is a tie breaker, triggers a lean one way or the other, reinforces a gut reaction. Rarely does a reference come up with a completely unexpected revelation. I am still going to weigh all the info I have before selecting.
Of course people can and do grow into new jobs all the time. Silly question. Whether you can grow into the job or not shouldn't be based primarily on what a reference said. It should be based on how carefully I conducted the interview, what the candidate said in the interview, what the CV told me, and what past employers have said. Nothing gets done without good communication. Its even more important than technical skills IMHO. Your reference was supposedly honest about communication skills. Right now in this thread you are communicating that you get pretty defensive when things don't go your way. None of this was a personal attack or a betrayal but you are seeing it as such. This is what needs your attention, not second-guessing your references.
Last edited by Parnassia; 03-20-2018 at 09:02 PM..
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