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Their ultimate plan is to run career programs through the schools to have the kids learn the most in demand skills.
There are plenty such programs already. I went through an IT program where I got an internship, a degree and an IT certification in demand, only to find out I can't get a job in that field because I don't have experience.
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And since everyone is in the most demand skillset already coming in the gate, age discrimination will now be worse than ever.
Preventing older workers from going back to school, learning new skills that are in demand and getting hired in the new field.
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Also, everyone from the United Nations, to the NCAA, to the YMCA and Afterschool Alliance, to sports teams and loads more are pushing everyone into STEM, STEM, STEM. Do you know what happens when everyone goes toward STEM? It becomes a low wage industry!
This is precisely the reason we have this narrative of a "talent shortage" - to drive down salaries.
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You'll see that we've been had by BOTH major parties.
I'm not a fan of either major party. I see them as two halves of the one party system.
Partisan politics is one group of corrupt people, seeking to enrich themselves and their cronies at everyone else's expense, railing against another group of corrupt people, seeking to enrich themselves and their cronies at everyone else's expense in public. Meanwhile, behind closed doors, in smoky back rooms, they are buddy buddy. Academy award acting is not just in Hollywood.
The cost of living in Silicon Valley is ridiculous. 4k/month for a 2BR. 3K for 1Br. Entry level salaries are nowhere near enough to afford this. We have people living in cars there because the companies don't want to give raises.
This is happening more and more across the country.
Employment is unstable and you expect people to maintain a stable apartment and address? That's not even within 50 miles of reasonable. Apartment leases are 1 year minimum and contracts/gigs/jobs don't even last that long. And nobody rents to the unemployed.
We're not talking about the obvious: druggies, mentally ill, or those who are financially irresponsible. We're talking about people who can't afford the basics and did nothing wrong except be unemployed. In an economy where full time employe jobs get cut and are replaced by short term gigs and contracts. Where full time jobs get cut to part time.
All it takes is someone losing their job and not being able to find another in time for the next rent to be due, to wind up sleeping in a car. Apparently, employers think this is impossible, as they process 200 desperate resumes for a job.
I hear you, but I can't afford to live in SV either, and I make well into six figures (with a family so I'd need a house). If you have to live in a van to avoid being one step ahead of living on the street [bold] and you are an engineer [/bold], not a short-order cook, maybe you're in the wrong location. I don't see any engineers in Chicago, Nashville, Austin, Philadelphia, or Charlotte living out of a van. I know it's better to be close to the action but maybe that will come later in one's career.
This is in a decent part of Hayward. $1600 isn't $3000. It's a little out of the way for commuting to Silicon Valley but it sure beats living in a van.
Not everyone can get an internship. There are more students than internships available. Even if someone does get an internship, no job is guaranteed at the end of the internship, even if the intern does well. Even IF someone had an internship and didn't get a job afterwards, that internship won't qualify them for most "entry level" jobs which require 2-3 years experience.
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I listed internship as one of multiple things that a student could do. One. If you can't do it, there are several other items on that list.
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Originally Posted by bobsell
I don't recall any STEM degree program that doesn't require research. Project papers are the norm.
Professional participation means what? Be a member of a club on campus?
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Project papers are not research. That's just part of taking the class. Doing the bare minimum. As I mentioned, just doing what's listed in the basic curriculum. Research is working on something new, as part of a research group, under the guidance of a professor or PI. At the undergrad level it's something done in addition to classwork, on your own time, and on your own initiative to seek out a research group to join. It indicates several things -- initiative, ability to work on a team, and ability to think beyond the textbook and demonstrates the mindset to solve new and undefined problems.
Professional participation is not a club but active participation in the student section of the relevant professional society for your discipline. There are a variety -- SPS for physics, AIAA for aerospace, SAE, etc. Participation shows that you take professionalism seriously and shows initiative to look at the long term participation in the profession you're studying to be a member of.
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Originally Posted by bobsell
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Leadership? Are you looking for middle management or executives? We're talking about entry level jobs here. People fresh from college. You expect them to have 10 years experience leading troops into battle on V-E day?
The standards are ridiculous. No wonder people have trouble finding jobs!
So how does one qualify? Your post is very vague.
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I AM talking about entry level jobs. No one said 10 years experience. That's in your own head. I said having done something that demonstrates leadership. Because even entry level employees are part of teams. And are expected to work with and occasionally lead teams. That's normal everyday work environment, not some high "ridiculous" standard that you seem to think. What, did you think you just came in everyday and were told exactly what to do and how to do it? That's not what STEM graduates are hired for. They are hired to actively use their knowledge.
And there's nothing vague about what I said. It's pretty straight forward. There are students everyday who figured this out freshman year -- basic stuff: do more than the minimum, show initiative, demonstrate leadership, participate in teamwork.
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Originally Posted by bobsell
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So train them how to do that.
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Really? Train someone how to use a library and how to NOT plagiarize from the internet? You should have learned the basics of a library in middle school and certainly how to use the research capabilities while in college. That would be like expecting the job to train you on how to do math. We already have to train new engineers how to write and speak because they haven't been taught. Don't have time to also reteach what they should have learned in college. And I certainly shouldn't have to teach you not to plagiarize. Good grief!
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Originally Posted by bobsell
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Again, what is this mindset?
The mindset is one of being a self starter, taking initiative, being able to learn -- a STEM degree does not teach you everything you need to know; it teaches what it takes to get started learning. The mindset of being a professional in a STEM field -- professionalism, thoroughness, attention to detail, the ability to think beyond what's been done and create something new.
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Originally Posted by bobsell
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"I am willing to work for free, sir!"
"I am willing to work cheap, sir!"
"I don't need vacation time, sir!"
"I am willing to work uncompensated overtime, sir!"
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That attitude is part of what I mean. Sarcasm toward someone trying to help you is out of place. You won't work for free; you'll be well paid compared to many fields. And yes, you will work uncompensated overtime. It's part of being a professional.
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Originally Posted by bobsell
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What I'm seeing here is an inability to communicate the most basic requirements of what "qualified" means.
You're complaining about the candidates? The candidates are not the problem. The problem is you. You're not communicating clearly what is expected from your candidates. People cannot read your mind.
If this is the way you write your expectations of what you expect from candidates on a forum post, I can't imagine how badly you've written the job description.
What I see is an entitled and spoiled employer who expects candidates to have some phantom qualifications they can't even communicate properly.
Take responsibility for your actions instead of holding the candidates responsible for your actions.
Not sure why you aren't understanding. I'm not communicating anything new here. These are just basic parts of being a professional that have been understood for decades. That's what scientists and engineers are -- professionals. You don't need to read my mind and I shouldn't have to be explaining this; you should have come out of high school with a rudimentary understanding and certainly before you finished college.
Nope, I'm not complaining about the candidates. I'm telling you how to set yourself apart from the other hundred resumes I'll see this month. Because while you may not be understanding this, you can bet other students figured it out freshman year and have been doing everything I mentioned and more.
And of course I didn't write a job description here. This isn't the place for a job announcement. I'm providing advice. You choose not to accept it; that's fine; but then don't complain when others get hired ahead of you. I don't have to take responsibility for what you did or didn't do in college; that's up to you. Because there are plenty who did and they're the ones that are getting job offers.
I hear you, but I can't afford to live in SV either, and I make well into six figures (with a family so I'd need a house). If you have to live in a van to avoid being one step ahead of living on the street [bold] and you are an engineer [/bold], not a short-order cook, maybe you're in the wrong location.
Silicon Valley is wrong for pretty much anyone who is working for a living.
Relocating is expensive, and if they're not able to afford renting a room, they're not going to be able to afford relocating to another part of the country. They're also not going to be able to afford first, last month's rent.
Silicon Valley is a trap that entraps people.
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I don't see any engineers in Chicago, Nashville, Austin, Philadelphia, or Charlotte living out of a van.
If someone is sleeping in the car and attempt to relocate to one of those cities for salvation, this is what will happen:
* employers like you will discriminate against them because of their lack of housing
* landlords won't rent to them because they're out of work (they'll have to quit their job to relocate)
Hard to sell this as an improvement and inducement to relocate elsewhere. I agree, one should relocate if the job market is bad in an area, but that requires employers and landlords to work with the relocating talent. They will still be forced to live in their cars in the new city until a) an employer looks past the lack of address and b) a landlord looks past the just recently started employment.
Something that is not happening. The working class is on their own.
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It's a little out of the way for commuting to Silicon Valley but it sure beats living in a van.
You're also assuming someone working in Silicon Valley is not worked to death, and now adding a horrifically long commute to that mix, which does not improve their life, and done solely to satisfy a superficial judgment from a spoiled employer.
Some of these people who live in their cars are not just doing it to save on rent, they're also trying to avoid a 2 hour commute in horrific traffic while their bosses work them to death.
Project papers are not research. That's just part of taking the class.
Have you written one of these papers in a class lately? Maybe they didn't do research back in your day, but they were doing it 20 years ago when I first went to college and a few years ago when I went back. Research in a library, or electronic media is done.
This is not just "googling" - professors will mark down for sloppy research, and even give zeroes for wikipedia citations.
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Research is working on something new, as part of a research group, under the guidance of a professor or PI.
New research is done at the PhD or even Master's level. Not bachelor degree level. Although some have senior capstone projects.
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At the undergrad level it's something done in addition to classwork, on your own time, and on your own initiative to seek out a research group to join. It indicates several things -- initiative, ability to work on a team, and ability to think beyond the textbook and demonstrates the mindset to solve new and undefined problems.
It also is unpaid, which the part about "I am willing to work for free" attitude which you decried as sarcasm, is the exact thing you are expecting. In addition, this is not required for the degree and not counted as work experience, so no benefit accrues to the candidate.
When I went to grad school, we had teams working on common projects, so we were working as a team, but apparently you won't count that because, oops, it is part of the degree. Apparently if one works on a team for a degree it is worthless, but if one works on a team giving free labor to others, that must be valuable. I don't understand how this is reasonable.
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I AM talking about entry level jobs.
An entry level job does not have leadership responsibilities or even the chance at leadership. It is the bottom of the rung, the "pay your dues" part. This is not Star Trek where a newly minted ensign gets to sit in the Captain's chair. This is a new crewman doing grunt work that the senior crewman assigns.
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Because even entry level employees are part of teams.
And you don't count working on teams if part of degree work.
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And are expected to work with and occasionally lead teams.
No entry level person is called to lead a team. Those are senior people doing that.
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What, did you think you just came in everyday and were told exactly what to do and how to do it?
No, people are told their assignments and the deadline. Just like in school.
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That's not what STEM graduates are hired for. They are hired to actively use their knowledge.
Correct, and that knowledge is not valued if one has no experience. There are no STEM jobs that require no experience. People can have knowledge and skills, but oops, no experience, game over, all of that is worthless to the employer.
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Really? Train someone how to use a library and how to NOT plagiarize from the internet?
I'd wonder how they DID NOT learn this in schools. Especially in College/University. They nail students for plagiarism. Back when I first went to school and even when I went back. I understood why this is important and played by the rules both times - but I'm sure there are those who didn't.
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The mindset of being a professional in a STEM field -- professionalism, thoroughness, attention to detail, the ability to think beyond what's been done and create something new.
And the ability to communicate. Something you did not do in your previous post. When I called you on it, you got angry and upset.
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That attitude is part of what I mean. Sarcasm toward someone trying to help you is out of place.
It wasn't sarcasm, as I mentioned above, you expect people to work for free. Maybe not for YOU, but definitely you expected people to work for free before you decide them to be worthy to work for you.
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I don't have to take responsibility for what you did or didn't do in college; that's up to you.
But you do have to take responsibility for communicating properly.
Look, I get it. Nothing I can say can get you to drop your negative stereotypes about candidates. When schools upped their standards, doing projects involving teamwork, teaching how to do proper research, you raised your standards even more saying that is not enough. Every time employers tell schools to up their standards, the schools do so and then the employers promptly raise their standards again, and complain about the lack of quality candidates.
You're also assuming someone working in Silicon Valley is not worked to death, and now adding a horrifically long commute to that mix, which does not improve their life, and done solely to satisfy a superficial judgment from a spoiled employer.
Some of these people who live in their cars are not just doing it to save on rent, they're also trying to avoid a 2 hour commute in horrific traffic while their bosses work them to death.
If you want a job in demand, seek a career in one of the skilled trades. Go to a trade school, get an apprenticeship, and become a master welder, plumber, electrician, mechanic, HVAC specialist, etc. These are good careers and all very much in demand. And they will pay well once you are experienced. And if you own a home and ever need to call one out, you'll know they're in demand and well compensated. $85/hr is what the last plumber charged to come out to do some work for a bathroom remodel. Similar last time I had a car in the shop to be worked on.
It is interesting that schools are pushing STEM and over glorifying it. They invent projects even on elementary level, tie them to STEM somehow and give themselves a pat on a back. Instead of giving solid math and science instruction with basic knowledge that can be applicable the do so called "enrichment" projects that teach very little.
I have long suspected that STEM was hyped up and not as well paying as we are made believe.
30 seconds of Googling. Try it sometime. He's basically you.
Like I care.
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