do the work yourselves, rich people (real estate, paycheck, paid, pension)
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Since no one wants to raise minimum wage, let's go the other way. Let's turn the clock back to 1968.
Everything you pay for: rent, houses, cars, food, utilities, college, gas, etc, is now at 1968 prices. Everyone's salary is at 1968 wages, too. Doctors, lawyers, CEOs. Everyone takes a pay cut. Some people take a huge pay cut. And guess what?
Minimum wage is $1.60, BUT minimum wage workers have the same buying power with that $1.60 in 1968 that they do today with the minimum wage of $7.25 an hour in 2018. If we cut everything back to 1968 prices and salaries, minimum wage workers would be the only ones not facing a negative lifestyle change by going backwards in time.
In other words, their $7.25 an hour is worth only $1.60 in real wages now in 2018.
Now you tell me again why we shouldn't be raising the minimum wage.
Well first of all we live in United States not communist fantasy land. Why should someone with a skill take a pay cut. You think a doctor and a ditch digger should be paid the same? Sure the jobs start with the letter D so yeah let’s make sure they get paid the same amount.
Sorry It’s nobodys fault if you choose (and yes it’s a choice) to stay in that minimum wage position. You can go to school, learn a trade or degree apply for management positions as you get experience etc.
Instead your plan is “let’s bring everyone down to entry level because I can’t actually get ahead and life is unfair” Sorry but screw that. There here is a plethora of labor for minimum wage jobs.
That’s because there are plenty of people willing to do those jobs at those wages. If there weren’t the pay would be higher. There are medical schools offering free tuition tompeople who want to be doctors because there is a shortage of doctors. That’s why doctors get paid more than a ditch digger. Because a doctor can dig ditches but why would you want him to. It’s a waste of mind and talent.
People ***** about the housing prices being fixed. This is nothing more than government mandated price fixing. And guess what? Ultimately it will do absolutely nothing to raise poor people out of poverty and never will. Most people wil, not use that additional money for anything more than paying bills or buying shiny baubles. Because prices will simply go up to cover the additional cost. It’s asinine to think that business owners will simply eat the additional labor costs from this change. They will simply raise their prices and possibly make everyone part time.
That doesn't present any new argument as to why raising minimum wage should happen. That just says "I think everyone else makes too much money".
Artificial price floors (or ceilings) have a net negative impact on economies. That needs to be addressed first.
Since when is minimum wage keeping pace with the cost of living an "artificial price ceiling"? If anything, it's the other way around. Minimum wage currently having the buying power of $1.60 in 1968 is what I would call artificially depressing wages. And if this isn't a net negative impact on the economy as it is today, what the hell is?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner
Places already have raised minimum and $15 does exist... it also puts pressure on nearby areas when the key people leave.
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Originally Posted by tolovefromANFIELD
Because it hurts the very same people it's supposed to help. It lowers the competition for the said labor, and therefore it reduces pricing pressures on the buyers of the said labor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrician4you
Well first of all we live in United States not communist fantasy land. Why should someone with a skill take a pay cut. You think a doctor and a ditch digger should be paid the same? Sure the jobs start with the letter D so yeah let’s make sure they get paid the same amount.
Sorry It’s nobodys fault if you choose (and yes it’s a choice) to stay in that minimum wage position. You can go to school, learn a trade or degree apply for management positions as you get experience etc.
Instead your plan is “let’s bring everyone down to entry level because I can’t actually get ahead and life is unfair” Sorry but screw that. There here is a plethora of labor for minimum wage jobs.
That’s because there are plenty of people willing to do those jobs at those wages. If there weren’t the pay would be higher. There are medical schools offering free tuition tompeople who want to be doctors because there is a shortage of doctors. That’s why doctors get paid more than a ditch digger. Because a doctor can dig ditches but why would you want him to. It’s a waste of mind and talent.
People ***** about the housing prices being fixed. This is nothing more than government mandated price fixing. And guess what? Ultimately it will do absolutely nothing to raise poor people out of poverty and never will. Most people wil, not use that additional money for anything more than paying bills or buying shiny baubles. Because prices will simply go up to cover the additional cost. It’s asinine to think that business owners will simply eat the additional labor costs from this change. They will simply raise their prices and possibly make everyone part time.
What all three of you are forgetting is that the minimum wage, if it had kept pace with the cost of living, should be a little over $21 an hour right now. For all your arguments, not one of you is looking at minimum wage in 1968 and saying what you're saying about the economy as it was then.
$1.60 in 1968 had the same buying power as $7.25 has today. I don't hear any of you guys talking about how, because the minimum wage was so high in 1968, that businesses couldn't afford to pay workers and went under, that prices went up, that people couldn't afford to buy anything, etc, etc. Because it simply wasn't true then and isn't true now.
Yet, that's the argument you all are using against raising minimum wage to what it should be today.
Businesses got a huge boost in profits by being able to keep minimum wage down. But there's payback for that and the payback time is here. I'm sorry businesses didn't save for the rainy day that was coming when they'd have to pay fair wages again. That's not my lookout.
Prices don't have to go up that much. Look at a store like Walmart - this is from 2014, but it's still worth reading:
"A single mother working at Walmart is eligible for food stamps if she makes less than $20,449 a year. Industry analysts put the average wage for cashiers at $8.81, or for someone who works typical retail hours of 30 a week, 50 weeks a year, $13,215 a year. Raising that single mom’s wages to $13.63 an hour, however, would push her to a point where she no longer qualifies for food stamps. Doing that for all of its employees would cost the company $4.8 billion a year. Yet if it passed the entire cost on to consumers, it would raise prices by 1.4 percent, making a $0.68 box of macaroni and cheese cost just a penny more."
On top of everything else, you guys are forgetting the gain of raising minimum wage and that gain is people who no longer have to rely on food stamps or welfare. And isn't every other post on CD from everyone complaining about all the people who get government benefits? Give them a living wage and they won't be.
Electrician, of course people are going to use the money to pay bills and buy stuff. That's what money is for. It's what our economy is based on. Our economy works when people spend money.
What doesn't work is when all that money that's flowing to the top gets sent out of the country to off shore savings accounts and not taxed and not spent.
Suppose Joe Blow decided to open a refrigerator store in his neighborhood. His neighborhood has 10 families in it with each of those families making $40,000 a year. His fridges are $200 apiece. He sells ten of them and makes $2000. Now the economy changes.
All of a sudden, two of the families are making $150,000 each. The other eight families have incomes of $12,500 per family. They can't afford to buy fridges. Joe panics and raises the price of refrigerators to $500, more than double the cost. The two families making $150,000 each buy a fridge. Joe sells two fridges for $1000.
Yes, this example is very simple. But it shows what happens to businesses when people don't have money to spend.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner
In the eyes of the world... 99% make less than 33k... if I remember the stat correctly... which leaves a lot of everyday Americans in the 1%...
Let's please quit with comparing us to the rest of the world, because if you do, you need to bring in countries that have better health care, better retirement plans, better prenatal care, better newborn mortality rates, etc, than the US has. We're not talking about the rest of the world. We're talking about the US - the country that says they're the best in world.
Do you hear countries like Somalia and others claim that? Although some of them could claim a much better vaccination rate than the US, even in the midst of a civil war.
And let's face it - we have people living in the same kind of poverty that is representative of third world countries. Maybe our poverty isn't a visible, but believe me, it's there.
And on top of everything else, even if "a lot" of Americans are in the 1% (of the world), what does that say about how our citizens who aren't in the 1% live in this country?
........ i'm done working in the job market. it's over.......
If you are young and childless, there won't be any welfare for you, but I highly recomend Los Angeles, where the weather is nice. You won't be cold or wet, and they are very tolerant of the homeless and provide lots of free food, already cooked and served for you. You don't even have to wash dishes.
You can go and hang out all day at the beach. Marijuana is legal. Life would be dreamy.
Man I get tired of hearing this poor ole pitiful me, minimum wage is too low, I don't get paid enough crap. Quit walking around bitching and complaining and do something about it. Go to school and get a degree, learn a trade that is in demand, start your own business.....just do something and quit crying for someone to give it to you because we aren't going to and we really don't care. We are too busy making it happen for ourselves.
If you are young and childless, there won't be any welfare for you, but I highly recomend Los Angeles, where the weather is nice. You won't be cold or wet, and they are very tolerant of the homeless and provide lots of free food, already cooked and served for you. You don't even have to wash dishes.
You can go and hang out all day at the beach. Marijuana is legal. Life would be dreamy.
Sadly, San Diego has gone that way, too. Thousands of vagrants wandering around, tearing up the trash, breaking into cars and garages, leaving trash and booze bottles and syringes around their filthy tents, aggressively panhandling while fiddling with their smartphones, setting fires... and there is a subset of society that looks at this and thinks, "Oh, these poor people! Society has left them behind! All they need is a little help!" They all have two arms, two legs, most are relatively young... but they want their "freedom". They despise society. I really, really wish we could go back to the days where they'd be tossed on a bus, bleeding and with a concussion, and know they are not to return or else. They're a blight.
Since when is minimum wage keeping pace with the cost of living an "artificial price ceiling"? If anything, it's the other way around. Minimum wage currently having the buying power of $1.60 in 1968 is what I would call artificially depressing wages. And if this isn't a net negative impact on the economy as it is today, what the hell is?
What all three of you are forgetting is that the minimum wage, if it had kept pace with the cost of living, should be a little over $21 an hour right now. For all your arguments, not one of you is looking at minimum wage in 1968 and saying what you're saying about the economy as it was then.
$1.60 in 1968 had the same buying power as $7.25 has today. I don't hear any of you guys talking about how, because the minimum wage was so high in 1968, that businesses couldn't afford to pay workers and went under, that prices went up, that people couldn't afford to buy anything, etc, etc. Because it simply wasn't true then and isn't true now.
Yet, that's the argument you all are using against raising minimum wage to what it should be today.
Businesses got a huge boost in profits by being able to keep minimum wage down. But there's payback for that and the payback time is here. I'm sorry businesses didn't save for the rainy day that was coming when they'd have to pay fair wages again. That's not my lookout.
Prices don't have to go up that much. Look at a store like Walmart - this is from 2014, but it's still worth reading:
"A single mother working at Walmart is eligible for food stamps if she makes less than $20,449 a year. Industry analysts put the average wage for cashiers at $8.81, or for someone who works typical retail hours of 30 a week, 50 weeks a year, $13,215 a year. Raising that single mom’s wages to $13.63 an hour, however, would push her to a point where she no longer qualifies for food stamps. Doing that for all of its employees would cost the company $4.8 billion a year. Yet if it passed the entire cost on to consumers, it would raise prices by 1.4 percent, making a $0.68 box of macaroni and cheese cost just a penny more."
On top of everything else, you guys are forgetting the gain of raising minimum wage and that gain is people who no longer have to rely on food stamps or welfare. And isn't every other post on CD from everyone complaining about all the people who get government benefits? Give them a living wage and they won't be.
Electrician, of course people are going to use the money to pay bills and buy stuff. That's what money is for. It's what our economy is based on. Our economy works when people spend money.
What doesn't work is when all that money that's flowing to the top gets sent out of the country to off shore savings accounts and not taxed and not spent.
Suppose Joe Blow decided to open a refrigerator store in his neighborhood. His neighborhood has 10 families in it with each of those families making $40,000 a year. His fridges are $200 apiece. He sells ten of them and makes $2000. Now the economy changes.
All of a sudden, two of the families are making $150,000 each. The other eight families have incomes of $12,500 per family. They can't afford to buy fridges. Joe panics and raises the price of refrigerators to $500, more than double the cost. The two families making $150,000 each buy a fridge. Joe sells two fridges for $1000.
Yes, this example is very simple. But it shows what happens to businesses when people don't have money to spend.
Let's please quit with comparing us to the rest of the world, because if you do, you need to bring in countries that have better health care, better retirement plans, better prenatal care, better newborn mortality rates, etc, than the US has. We're not talking about the rest of the world. We're talking about the US - the country that says they're the best in world.
Do you hear countries like Somalia and others claim that? Although some of them could claim a much better vaccination rate than the US, even in the midst of a civil war.
And let's face it - we have people living in the same kind of poverty that is representative of third world countries. Maybe our poverty isn't a visible, but believe me, it's there.
And on top of everything else, even if "a lot" of Americans are in the 1% (of the world), what does that say about how our citizens who aren't in the 1% live in this country?
1968 was years before my time...
I do know my first computer cost nearly 3 months pay and it was an Apple... I recently bought a computer that is hundreds of times better and it cost $199 at Walmart... two days minimum wage here buys it today... two days wages in 2018 or 600 hours min wages back then???
Seems every 12 year old in my nieces public school has a $600 I-phones.
Flying was very expensive... South West makes flying cheaper than driving...
People paint a picture where everything costs more in real terms...
Anyone price a good camera 25 years ago with one today?
A Texas Instruments add, subtract, multiply, divide and square root adding machine cost over a $100 in 1976... today they give them away for free in junk mail.
A lot of what was once valued such as second hand goods and fix-it shops... yes... there was a fix-it shop in the neighborhood no longer exist.
There was a time when people fixed Televisions, Dishwashers, Refrigerators... etc...
Maybe we made things better back in the day...
Mom still has her pride and joy 1968 Kenmore Avocado Washer Dryer pair...having the luxury of a clothes dryer was a very big deal... at least in my family... and 50 years later they are still working perfectly... same for the Freezer Mom and Dad got as a anniversary present from my grandparents... Amana... also in the 1960's...
Lest we forget... Housing is very costly here in the SF Bay Area... but was the bargain of a generation only 6 years ago... not 60 years ago... but 6 years ago.
I sold my home in 2005 for 255,000. In 2007 my Oakland California home sold again for $350,000.
Here is the kicker... it sold several years later for $60,000.... yes, sold $60,000 and it was not trashed or abused...
Any discussion of costs has to look at the whole picture...
Education.... San Francisco provides FREE 2 year college education... yes... FREE in 2018.
If we adjusted many things for inflation they would cost much more than we pay today... including gasoline...
California Property Tax had double digit single year increases in the 1970's... since 1978 Property Tax here is limited to a max 2% annual increase.
Never before have so many lived so well and so long as today... I manage residential property... lots of experience with Section 8... not a single Section 8 tenant in decades of management without Cable TV... I have never lived in a home with cable... Not a single Section 8 household where adults and teens don't have cell phones... I don't own a cell phone...
My cars are used... yet several of my Section 8 families have bought brand new cars... just saying.
Back in the day... we packed a school lunch... how many kids pack a lunch today... no sir... hot lunch is a given...
My cousins kids communicate all the time with heir Grandparents living in Europe... these are pre teen kids... back in the day... talking a few minutes to Europe cost a day's wages...
Last edited by Ultrarunner; 09-05-2018 at 07:17 PM..
if employers won't pay me a fair wage($25/hour), then I might as well not even work. rich people can make their own food and assemble the cars themselves. i'd like to see how a restaurant meal or a car is going to be made by itself without workers. i won't be the cheap cog anymore for $9, 11, $15.50 an hour or whatever numbers these employers pull out of their $sses. i'm done working in the job market. it's over.
The proof of how rich any country is determined by what the people throw away and no country throws away or consumes as much as America... and this is fact.
Incredible how much waste there is... perfectly good appliances and furnishings set out on the curb for collection... clothes, shows, etc... just overflow at collection stations.
America also take care of seasoned citizens... Medicare does a fantastic job... so much so that the rallying cry has been to expand Medicare to all...
The classic book the Millionare Next Door showed the traits of millionares... and they were not flashy cars, expensive trips, jewelry or a life of liesure... instead the millionares were most often small business owners with a good first marriage that kept cars for 2.5 times the national average with the most popular vehicle being the F Series Ford Truck... they are also active in their church and community... service clubs being tops.
People do not need to got out to dinner or buy a new car... these are luxuries... just like Starbucks.
If there were no workers and you had to fix your own food, would you think you were worth that amount? Like the guy who doesn't want to clean his own house. How much do you think he thinks he's worth doing that job? I bet if he had to clean houses for a living, he'd want to be paid a whole lot more than $25 an hour.
Poor people pay taxes every time they put gas in their car or buy something. If there's a state where the poor don't pay any taxes, I've been missing out all these years. And they pay taxes if they work. Even when I was making $5.50 an hour, I paid taxes and no way did I get all those taxes back when it came time to file.
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$5.50 an hour?! I think I made that working part time in high school. Try to keep it within the last 25 yrs.
The proof of how rich any country is determined by what the people throw away and no country throws away or consumes as much as America... and this is fact.
Incredible how much waste there is... perfectly good appliances and furnishings set out on the curb for collection... clothes, shows, etc... just overflow at collection stations.
As I stated long ago, I had a roommate who went around getting free a/c units. Made a bundle the next year selling them, many not even 2 years old!
I have watched youtube vids where people go dumpster diving. Good God some things they have found... All still working computers, games and movies...Incredible...
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