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I know that employers can fire employees for almost any reason. How/when does this not conflict with those laws against discriminating people on the basis of their religion, ethnicity, race, orientation, disability, political leanings, etc.? To me, at times the line is blurred between those sentences. I could see see the first sentence being used as a reason or excuse to justify discriminating someone on the points in the second sentence.
There is no blurring of the line and no conflicts - if you are in a protected class (race, disability) believe me an employer better have good documentation of the reason for termination or face legal action. If not, courts tend to favor the employee.
There are other illegally protected areas as well - terminating an employee for failure to engage in a violation of public policy, whistle blowers, etc.
It's completely easy to fire anyone for any reason.
Correct, but
Quote:
If I have a bad employee, I'll write them up for the smallest infractions, insubordination, tardyness, not following directions, etc.
...this is how "easy" firing decisions end up being very costly in the long run. You are lucky you haven't crossed an employee willing to file a lawsuit against your company. Pro tip for all you shady managers inclined to create paper trails to justify a termination that is probably discriminatory:
Make sure you have a documented pattern of doing these petty writeups to multiple employees. Otherwise, a good lawyer will bust this scheme right open.
Best to avoid getting into the habit of writing checks your rear can't cash.
Location: East of Seattle since 1992, 615' Elevation, Zone 8b - originally from SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PriscillaVanilla
Because religion, race, ethnicity, and gender are federally protected classes so those are the exceptions.
Political beliefs are not a federally protected class.
Yes, and a manager would not discriminate in firing, because they wouldn’t hire the person in the first place. The standard non-reason usually given “we decided to go with someone else” makes it hard to prove discrimination in hiring.
layoff is several people.
firing is you. of course,
sometimes you can
resign or retire or
take a buyout.
like this:
Greg Fishel is gone from WRAL after nearly four decades.
WRAL announced Wednesday that chief meteorologist Greg Fishel has resigned.
WRAL called it a “personnel matter,” and Fishel said “personal issues” led to his resignation.
I know that employers can fire employees for almost any reason. How/when does this not conflict with those laws against discriminating people on the basis of their religion, ethnicity, race, orientation, disability, political leanings, etc.? To me, at times the line is blurred between those sentences. I could see see the first sentence being used as a reason or excuse to justify discriminating someone on the points in the second sentence.
Two separate issues. Just because you are firing someone who happens to be in a protected class doesn't automatically mean you are practicing discrimination. By the same token, 'At will' doesn't automatically give you the right to discriminate.
Anecdotally - discrimination claims or all type of wrongful termination claims are actually more common than most realize. Perhaps someone from HR can chime in - but I had a colleague in HR a few jobs back (we had a headcount of about 500). And she'd give me tid bits all the time about these claims. 99% of them don't go anywhere - but they had to basically respond to every one. We never go into detail, but I'd say it's 1-2 a month. That said - half of the staff were in what I would consider high turnover position (retail service and call center) - which could contribute to the higher than normal claims.
As they say - anyone can sue anyone. So many of them likely perceived they were wronged. However, whether that was objectively the case is a different story.
And she'd give me tid bits all the time about these claims. 99% of them don't go anywhere - but they had to basically respond to every one.
That is because most employees don't know the legal definition of discrimination OR the elements of proving it. A lot of discrimination occurs in workplaces. As it has been mentioned already, it is difficult to prove. Not because it's not happening, but because by the time an employee realizes discrimination may be in play, they waited to late to document it (if they document it at all). Please believe if an employee comes with receipts (aka "evidence" for the older crowd ) an employer will do everything possible to keep the case from seeing daylight. That is also why the success rate is low. An employer will settle if the evidence against them is strong and they looking at a judgment against them. "Delay and obstruct" is the name of the game at that point. Discovery isn't fun for anyone.
As to the distinction between “fired” and “laid (layed?) off”: my girlfriend is a junior architect. She worked in a local small firm, consisting of the owner, the owner’s favored employee, my girlfriend, and 2-3 additional people as 1099 contractors. One day, my girlfriend was called into the owner’s office, and summarily fired. The owner demonstratively said, “I’ve decided to take my business in a different direction. Your employment is now over, effective immediately. I don’t have to give you any reasons. Now please pack your stuff and leave”.
When my girlfriend call the state unemployment agency regarding unemployment benefits, she was told that her benefits-eligibility depends on whether she was fired or laid off. The former invalidates eligibility, but for one to fall into this category, the employer must document employee deficiencies and show, in writing, how there was cause for firing. When the state contacted my former employer, he evidently relented, and said that no, it was just a lay-off… so, she received benefits.
We later learned from one of the 1099 contractors, who remains at that firm, that Monday after my girlfriend was fired (she was fired on a Friday afternoon), a new employee took her place. The company owner was careful to hire a woman, to preclude there being appearance of gender discrimination. This new employee, we’re told, accepted lower pay, and works longer hours.
My girlfriends’ grandfather and uncles are all lawyers. Upon consulting with them, she was told in no uncertain terms, that grounds or a wrongful-termination lawsuit are poor. Even if there’s no written or digital documentation of poor performance – making the firing peremptory and ad hoc – it is ultimately the prerogative of the employer to do so. Indeed, the burden of proof would fall on the employee, to document good performance, and lack of grounds for firing. But because the .pst files with email correspondence were on my girlfriend’s company computer – which of course the employer took back – she no longer has written evidence supporting her case. Oh well.
...this is how "easy" firing decisions end up being very costly in the long run. You are lucky you haven't crossed an employee willing to file a lawsuit against your company. Pro tip for all you shady managers inclined to create paper trails to justify a termination that is probably discriminatory:
Make sure you have a documented pattern of doing these petty writeups to multiple employees. Otherwise, a good lawyer will bust this scheme right open.
Best to avoid getting into the habit of writing checks your rear can't cash.
I'm a shady manager now?
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
I probably hire and fire 300+ people a year for the past three years. I think I know what I'm doing.
I'm in the restaurant business. What YOU consider a petty write up can be the difference between life and death for guests and employees.
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) an employer will do everything possible to keep the case from seeing daylight. That is also why the success rate is low. An employer will settle if the evidence against them is strong and they looking at a judgment against them. "Delay and obstruct" is the name of the game at that point. Discovery isn't fun for anyone. 
