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Old 03-22-2019, 04:55 PM
 
11,134 posts, read 8,544,282 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonyafd View Post
Why are you relying CD for complaints? Are you that new to the work force that you can't draw on the experience of others and your own?
In some companies ambitious people are identified and taken advantage of. They work unpaid overtime and get called in at the drop of a hat. Then they hire people into the position that you were hoping to be promoted to from another company.
I have drawn on my own experience and was told that doesn't count. Yeah, I've never known or heard of anyone having their vacation cancelled and called back into the office.

I don't know or haven't seen anyone working 60+ hours a work with one exception. Young traders who were making large salaries and were going to get large bonuses. A few extra hours didn't matter much.

Otherwise, I and my coworkers work 40 hours a week and we're all project managers.

Whatever benefits unions may provide, I don't need protection from overtime or vacation issues.

Of course, someone will now say my personal experience doesn't matter. Bye folks.
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Old 03-22-2019, 05:50 PM
 
1,696 posts, read 554,655 times
Reputation: 3581
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddm2k View Post
I understand why you might want to think that, but:

You can only say that so many times until you can't seem to work anywhere long enough to qualify for retirement. Your bosses, as non-union management, WILL cycle out more quickly, resulting in you working for SEVERAL managers even if your title doesn't change. At least ONE will be bad.

The union is the reason you DON'T have to move on because of a boss just looking for the smallest violation to start a paper trail. In any other non-protected setting, you have no recourse. Over a union worker's life, he very well may be fired multiple times, but will get his job back if no egregious misconduct was found. As long as you didn't hit someone, falsify records, or lay out for 40 straight days, you can be brought back on with back pay.

You have to be confrontational, but it WILL let you keep doing the work you love for 30 years. And no bad boss can change that.
You just described why I dislike unions. You should be fired if you perform poorly. Why would I want to work with co-workers who are just doing the average, and know they can't be punished because of union protection? I have higher standards than that. My career is my responsibility. I want to work with people who feel the same.

Again, I understand why people disagree with me, and that's fine. Unions should exist, and should be voluntary. There should never be exclusive bargaining rights, it someone wants to join a union, they should. If someone wants to not sign up for one, they should be allowed as well.

Last edited by Lekrii; 03-22-2019 at 06:32 PM..
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Old 03-22-2019, 07:31 PM
 
2,424 posts, read 693,558 times
Reputation: 3416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lekrii View Post
Quantify your work and prove you're adding value to a company and you will get raises.
Doesn't work that way in the private sector. Bring more value than you're worth and you'll be laid off.

Quote:
You are deemed "overqualified" if you somehow confuse working harder with getting more money.
Overqualified = "You went above and beyond the call of duty and brought a ton of value, but you dared to ask for a raise an I won't give it to you because I want my bonus check to be bigger."

Unions do exist for a reason, and it is because people get treated this way.

You can bring all the value you want and bring good performance, but the layoffs still come when you ask for a raise.

Read the Gervais Principle. It is reality.
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Old 03-22-2019, 07:38 PM
 
Location: Proxima Centauri
4,824 posts, read 1,989,023 times
Reputation: 5262
First of all DDM2K has a point. Some companies actively get three or four years of hard labor out of you and then as you draw close to a pension, they nail you.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lekrii View Post
You just described why I dislike unions. You should be fired if you perform poorly. Why would I want to work with co-workers who are just doing the average, and know they can't be punished because of union protection? I have higher standards than that. My career is my responsibility. I want to work with people who feel the same.

You're wrong. Union people can be fired. They just can't be fired if the boss is having a bad day and they stand up for themselves.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lekrii View Post
Again, I understand why people disagree with me, and that's fine. Unions should exist, and should be voluntary. There should never be exclusive bargaining rights, it someone wants to join a union, they should. If someone wants to not sign up for one, they should be allowed as well.

Collective bargaining doesn't work with 60% membership. Unions don't work without collective bargaining.
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Old 03-22-2019, 07:43 PM
 
3,767 posts, read 2,126,346 times
Reputation: 10273
Well it serves as a bit of a deterrent for idiot/abusive management but employers would just assume ditch the union shops in those union friendly states and find a state where its more "at will" exploitation of employees so who knows how secure a union Job is now.

We stood by for decades and allowed the corporations to destroy unions
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Old 03-22-2019, 07:43 PM
 
Location: Proxima Centauri
4,824 posts, read 1,989,023 times
Reputation: 5262
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlygal View Post
I have drawn on my own experience and was told that doesn't count. Yeah, I've never known or heard of anyone having their vacation cancelled and called back into the office.

I don't know or haven't seen anyone working 60+ hours a work with one exception. Young traders who were making large salaries and were going to get large bonuses. A few extra hours didn't matter much.

Otherwise, I and my coworkers work 40 hours a week and we're all project managers.

Whatever benefits unions may provide, I don't need protection from overtime or vacation issues.

Of course, someone will now say my personal experience doesn't matter. Bye folks.

How many places have you worked?

I've worked at eight different places and the union jobs were always better because no one changes the rules.
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Old 03-22-2019, 08:36 PM
 
26,591 posts, read 52,303,280 times
Reputation: 20438
One thing I liked about Union was the rule book... it covered most everything... from bereavement leave to advancement with pay scale.

Thing is the Union Job is no more... as are most of them from that time as these firms are far and few between in the field where I worked.

Right now management is pushing to make me salary...

The pay period is not over and I have 106 hours in... at management request... it would be another 8 if I worked tomorrow but manager wants me Sunday which is new pay period...

We had a candid discussion and I said you should work on having me here less... PTO has been maxed for all of 2018 and vacation requests denied.

I would take a payout but that comes with a 6% penalty...

My department has been downsized and the bean counters said it is cheaper to pay me overtime as opposed to adding another person... maybe why the push for me to go salary... which I oppose or it would be 60 hour weeks...
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Old 03-22-2019, 08:42 PM
 
1,696 posts, read 554,655 times
Reputation: 3581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonyafd View Post
Collective bargaining doesn't work with 60% membership. Unions don't work without collective bargaining.
Unions only work if you force people to not have a choice? Those are strong armed tactics, not freedom. If unions were as useful as you say, they'd work on their own while giving people a choice to not be part of them.

Obviously unions work if you force people join to them. Anything works under those circumstances. Again, unions should be an option. If someone wants to join one, they should be able. People should also be able to choose not to join, and to not receive any benefits. Let unions succeed under their own merit. Not because people who don't want any part of them are forced into it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsell View Post
Doesn't work that way in the private sector. Bring more value than you're worth and you'll be laid off.

Overqualified = "You went above and beyond the call of duty and brought a ton of value, but you dared to ask for a raise an I won't give it to you because I want my bonus check to be bigger."

Unions do exist for a reason, and it is because people get treated this way.

You can bring all the value you want and bring good performance, but the layoffs still come when you ask for a raise.

Read the Gervais Principle. It is reality.
A lot of people who don't spend enough time understanding the difference between working harder and adding more value do say what you just said.

Unions used to exist for very good reasons. Today, people are treated pretty well, a large part of what unions do is protect mediocre employees.

Last edited by Lekrii; 03-22-2019 at 08:52 PM..
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Old 03-22-2019, 10:38 PM
 
2,424 posts, read 693,558 times
Reputation: 3416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lekrii View Post
A lot of people who don't spend enough time understanding the difference between working harder and adding more value do say what you just said.
And you're one of those "a lot of people"

You seem to think that anyone who wants union protections MUST therefore be a mediocre employee, as if non-union situations always, without any exceptions whatsoever, are 100% meritocracies and every single one of those people adding more value are always rewarded 100% of the time.

And this is why your doctrine of employer infallibility fails - it does not meet the real world.

Quote:
Today, people are treated pretty well,


What planet are you on? This is definitely not the case on this planet.

Ridiculous job descriptions.

Employers discriminating against US workers.

Women discriminated against due to the ring they're wearing.

Age discrimination

H1B visa holders wanted but if you want market wages, no job for you.

People get rejected for being overqualified.

People are worked to death.

Employers hiring OPT visa holders with no experience for entry level jobs, but Americans MUST have experience for those same jobs!

Toxic work environments.

AND THIS GARBAGE IS HAPPENING NOW, when the job market is apparently HOT and being "candidate driven" with jobseeker to job opening ratio being around 1:1.

You don't know how bad it was when it was 2010 and we had 10% unemployment reported, with the ratio of jobseeker to job opening ratio being 7:1 or more.

And imagine how bad it will be in a year or two when the next recession hits!

I recommend people getting a union or government job. It is far better for them.
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Old 03-22-2019, 11:15 PM
 
1,696 posts, read 554,655 times
Reputation: 3581
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsell View Post
You seem to think that anyone who wants union protections MUST therefore be a mediocre employee, as if non-union situations always, without any exceptions whatsoever, are 100% meritocracies and every single one of those people adding more value are always rewarded 100% of the time.

And this is why your doctrine of employer infallibility fails - it does not meet the real world.
If someone wants union protection, yes, they are choosing to accept that they will work with more casual environment with less ambitious co-workers. There's nothing wrong with that. It's not better or worse. It's different, and it's not for me.

No one is ever rewarded 100% of the time. Nothing is guaranteed, often you do everything right and still fail. There is no such thing as 100% meritocracy or 100% reward. Life isn't fair. That's not a justification for not trying. That's going to be important to learn, or you're going to be upset at a lot of things you shouldn't be. It's extremely odd that you talk in absolutes. That's not how life works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsell View Post
You don't know how bad it was when it was 2010 and we had 10% unemployment reported, with the ratio of jobseeker to job opening ratio being 7:1 or more.
Things were bad in 2010. It's 2019, nearly a decade later. The job market is better now than it has been in a long time. But you found anecdotal evidence, so that's a decent justification for blaming something else, right?
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